Subject: [Drip] new world record on drone show?

From: Andrei Gurtov <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 15:06:44 +0200

Drone shows are getting popular, each new one tries to be bigger. It
seems a recent one with 2198 drones in the sky over St.Petersburg
exceeded IBM show by a couple hundred.

Looks cool  - drones are custom made (by kids?) and keep distance of 3
meters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agSnetEXTvk

Bandwidth requirements must be huge for CC, also positioning is more
precise than GNSS would allow?

Interesting how drone ID and cybersecurity issues were handled.

Andrei

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From: Robert Moskowitz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 09:44:39 -0400

> Interesting how drone ID and cybersecurity issues were handled.

Do you have pointers on this?

-- 
Standard Robert Moskowitz
Owner
HTT Consulting
C:248-219-2059
F:248-968-2824
E:[email-masked]

There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter who 
gets the credit

---

From: Robert Moskowitz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 09:45:41 -0400

> precise than GNSS would allow?

Oh, DAA could be cameras monitoring light sources, rather than active 
messaging.

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From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 15:51:15 +0200

Thanks for the pointer, the show is spectactular.  At 1:29 it seems to
be saying "god 2020, pamiati islavu / год 2020 памяти Иславы / Year 2020
in memory of Islava". (whoever Islava might be; might be WWII Glory
related.)

Earlier I was pointed by a similar show in China displaying Intel text.
  It might have been using less numerous drones.

The question I had to them, and now here, is again the same.

Le 08/09/2020 à 15:06, Andrei Gurtov a écrit :
> Looks cool  - drones are custom made (by kids?) and keep distance of
> 3 meters.

One says 'keep distance' but are they really keeping distance, or are
they just following pre-defined paths which involve pre-defined distances?

Keeping the distance constant is a technology well known in early
self-driving automobiles; some call it 'adaptive cruise-control' but
there are more names.  It involves using a bouncing signal, such as a
radar, sonar, lidar, camera, on each automobile; and dynamically adapt
the speed accordingly; more advanced alternatives involve adapting the
steering and use of communication system rather than bouncing signal.

On the contrary, following a pre-defined path is also known in early
self-driving automobiles.  Typically, the first demos of self-parking
automobiles were pre-defined paths (nothing automated, nothing
adaptive).  But that does not involve bouncing signals nor communication
systems.  It might use extensively the GNSS (GPS is some cases) but it
might as well not use it at all: just follow a pre-planned path of
points which are defined by a set of steering accel/brak instructions.

I think most such drone demos as in this youtube video (I suppose, I
didnt verify with my own hands) are following pre-planned paths, and
they dont dynamically 'keep distance'.

I am saying this because I work on a concept called 'flightooning' which
is flying in formation for drones, akin to platooning of automobiles.
And in that 'floghtooning' we say we do more than 'drone swarming'.

>  precise than GNSS would allow?

Yes, again, let us make sure these are not pre-defined paths.

If we determine that these demos are not pre-defined paths, then we can
evaluate the way this bandwidth is required, how GNSS is involved (if at
all) and more.  That could be discussed, there are many arguments.

Let us not be blinded by the spectacular part of it.

> Interesting how drone ID and cybersecurity issues were handled.

True.

I strongly doubt authorities in their right minds could allow 3000
drones in the air to depend on an occasionall wifi/gps cracker presence
around messing with jamming devices.  Or maybe I am too afraid that
things fall from the sky on my head :-)

(or with laser pointers for that matter, to blind the potential lidars)

Alex

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 15:52:10 +0200

Le 08/09/2020 à 15:44, Robert Moskowitz a écrit :
>> Drone shows are getting popular, each new one tries to be bigger.
>> It seems a recent one with 2198 drones in the sky over
>> St.Petersburg exceeded IBM show by a couple hundred.
>> 
>> Looks cool  - drones are custom made (by kids?) and keep distance
>> of 3 meters.
>> 
>> Bandwidth requirements must be huge for CC, also positioning is
>> more precise than GNSS would allow?
>> 

The youtube text pasted on youtube says:

> Holographic show of quadcopters in St. Petersburg, dedicated to the
> 75th anniversary of the end of the Second World War. In the sky above
> the city, 2,198 drones circled, creating holographic paintings. The
> organizer of the show is the Geoscan company. The height of the
> paintings ranged from 50 to 300 meters, the width reached 600, the
> distance between the drones was always observed at 3 meters.
> 
> These panoramic videos are best viewed on the big screen. If you are
> trying to see what is happening on your smartphone, then you are
> unlikely to enjoy watching. If possible, I advise you to review these
> videos, at least on a PC screen, and it is better to use a TV,
> ideally with a 4K or 8K resolution. The video with the salute in
> honor of the Navy also produced high-quality surround sound, which
> was facilitated by the calm weather.
> 
> Sorry for the quality of the video, YouTube again presses it
> mercilessly, even uploaded to 4K. Everything is like in the last
> video with the salute of the Navy.

> 
>> Andrei
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- Standard Robert Moskowitz Owner HTT Consulting C:248-219-2059 
> F:248-968-2824 E:[email-masked]
>

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 15:55:27 +0200

> Oh, DAA could be cameras monitoring light sources, rather than active 

What is DAA?

It is also true that some early missile automated flying technology also 
involved flying with as sole guiding info obtained from looking at the 
stars.

Alex

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From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 11:10:37 -0400

> precise than GNSS would allow?

Well, you could have several land based transmitters to provide differential GNSS.

    > Interesting how drone ID and cybersecurity issues were handled.

Since it's all under the control of a single entity, likely all the devices
of a single model, you just have to initialize them all.

Or perhaps, I don't really understand the question.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT architect   [
]     [email-masked]  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [

---

From: Robert Moskowitz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 11:47:40 -0400

> The youtube text pasted on youtube says:

I watched the youtube, I was wondering if there was more info on how 
they operated.

Seems all we can do is guess.

---

From: Robert Moskowitz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 11:50:17 -0400

>> Oh, DAA could be cameras monitoring light sources, rather than active 

Per draft-ietf-drip-reqs-04.txt:

    DAA
       Detect And Avoid, formerly Sense And Avoid (SAA).  A means of
       keeping aircraft "well clear" of each other for safety.

>
> It is also true that some early missile automated flying technology 
> also involved flying with as sole guiding info obtained from looking 
> at the stars.
>
> Alex
>
>>

---

From: Andrei Gurtov <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 20:53:45 +0200

Seems you can order a show online https://www.geoscan.aero/en/show-drones

Maybe for next IETF f2f DRIP meeting?)

Not much technical details, but some FAQ in English on wind, launch
area, etc. Since it operates in different countries must be using
international bands.

The data communication unit:

https://www.geoscan.aero/en/products/components/3dlink

3D Link was designed for maximum possible range in mind. For drone
flight over flat terrain at 50 m altitude and with standard antennas set
3D Link can communicate up to 20 km in video channel and up to 28 km in
control channel. For flight at 500 m altitude range achieves 62 km and
70 km respectively.

A.

On 9/8/2020 5:47 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> C:      248-219-2059
> F:      248-968-2824
> E:      [email-masked]
>
-- 
Andrei Gurtov, PhD, ACM Distinguished Scientist
Professor, LiU, Sweden
Vice-chair, IEEE Sweden
https://www.ida.liu.se/~andgu38/

---

From: Alexandre Petrescu <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 22:40:33 +0200

> Maybe for next IETF f2f DRIP meeting?)

The price range of such show seems to be in the 1Million English pounds
(https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43982522)

I dont want the IETF meeting registration fee to grow to accommodate
that :-)

> flight over flat terrain at 50 m altitude and with standard antennas
> set 3D Link can communicate up to 20 km in video channel and up to 28
> km in control channel. For flight at 500 m altitude range achieves 62
> km and 70 km respectively.

I will comment on these specs later.

Alex

>>>>> Drone shows are getting popular, each new one tries to be
>>>>> bigger. It seems a recent one with 2198 drones in the sky
>>>>> over St.Petersburg exceeded IBM show by a couple hundred.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Looks cool  - drones are custom made (by kids?) and keep
>>>>> distance of 3 meters.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bandwidth requirements must be huge for CC, also positioning
>>>>> is more precise than GNSS would allow?
>>>>> 
>> I watched the youtube, I was wondering if there was more info on
>> how they operated.
>> 
>>>> Holographic show of quadcopters in St. Petersburg, dedicated to
>>>> the 75th anniversary of the end of the Second World War. In the
>>>> sky above the city, 2,198 drones circled, creating holographic
>>>> paintings. The organizer of the show is the Geoscan company.
>>>> The height of the paintings ranged from 50 to 300 meters, the
>>>> width reached 600, the distance between the drones was always
>>>> observed at 3 meters.
>>>> 
>>>> These panoramic videos are best viewed on the big screen. If
>>>> you are trying to see what is happening on your smartphone,
>>>> then you are unlikely to enjoy watching. If possible, I advise
>>>> you to review these videos, at least on a PC screen, and it is
>>>> better to use a TV, ideally with a 4K or 8K resolution. The
>>>> video with the salute in honor of the Navy also produced
>>>> high-quality surround sound, which was facilitated by the calm
>>>> weather.
>>>> 
>>>> mercilessly, even uploaded to 4K. Everything is like in the
>>>> last video with the salute of the Navy.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Andrei
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- Standard Robert Moskowitz Owner HTT Consulting
>>>> C:248-219-2059 F:248-968-2824 E:[email-masked]
>>>> 
>>>> There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't
>>>> matter who gets the credit
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> There's no limit to what can be accomplished if it doesn't matter
>> who gets the credit
>> 
> -- Andrei Gurtov, PhD, ACM Distinguished Scientist Professor, LiU,
> Sweden Vice-chair, IEEE Sweden https://www.ida.liu.se/~andgu38/
> 
>

---

From: Robert Moskowitz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 16:59:54 -0400

> km and 70 km respectively.

I would be interested in what the FCC has to say about use of these 
radios.  Then they talk about IPv4, not IPv6.