Subject: [VCARDDAV] Why is GROUPS gone?

From: "Peter K. Sheerin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:36:36 -0700

Draft -01 says:

* The group construct (i.e.  GROUP.PROPERTY:...) no longer exists.

Why? I haven't been able to find any history behind this decision in the 
list archive.

I have some issues with the impact this has in how I format my vCard and 
how I think they should be structured and displayed in card editors, but 
want to know the history and proposed alternative before commenting further.
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From: Simon Perreault <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:23:14 -0400

> Why? I haven't been able to find any history behind this decision in the 

Well, first of all this isn't definitive. It's mostly a way to get 
people like you very angry and tell us why groups should stay.

There was some discussion and the basic argument is that they're 
useless. Their actual definition is very vague, so much so that 
applications almost never use them. Cyrus mentioned the exception of 
Apple's Address Book, but from the sample I've seen its use of groups is 
unjustified.

> want to know the history and proposed alternative before commenting 

In your vCard you use the WORK and HOME groups. Currently the TYPE 
parameter includes a way to do that.
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From: "Peter K. Sheerin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:59:22 -0700

> parameter includes a way to do that.
Primarily, yes. I tried reforming my v3.0 vCard today into v4.0 using 
the TYPE parameter, but found it extremely difficult and tedious to do 
in a valid way.

First, it was difficult to divine from the spec which fields it could be 
used with.

Second, when you're looking at the vCard source, it's much less obvious 
which items belong to which type.

Third, I don't believe that TYPE is currently allowed on enough fields 
to support the kinds of usage I think are obvious (see first point). Can 
it be used on all fields?

Fourth, I don't believe that something should be removed just because it 
isn't used. There's an awful lot of vCard that isn't used by most or any 
software, and if the spec were updated to match current behavior, as is 
done often with HTML minor updates. it would describe a badly 
bastardized vCard 2.1 that doesn't even inter-operate between a Palm 
Pilot and a Pocket PC (if I recall correctly).

To me, GROUPS is a logical way to segregate parts of a vCard that need 
to be clearly delineated by the usage model. For Home (read: contacting 
me outside of the office environment), I'm going to want to convey a 
different nickname (or set of nicknames) than I use at work. These 
fields should be intrinsically related to their usage, not buried in a 
difficult to find TYPE string.

I think putting this on TYPE is overloading it, and I can already think 
of one problem: What if I want to list multiple e-mail addresses for 
both work and home, yet indicate one in each group as being preferred. I 
can't do this with TYPE alone.
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From: Simon Perreault <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:58:55 -0400

> it be used on all fields?

I agree very much. Groups are better suited. But then we would need to somehow 
standardize the group names to give them a special meaning. And then allow 
for "X-..." groups. And create an IANA registry for group names.

Comments on this before it gets written?

> isn't used.

This debate is as old as the world. During my short IETF experience, I've 
often seen unused features removed in protocol revisions. So I guess that's 
the way they do it around here. If the powers that be decide I'm mistaken, 
please kindly say so.
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