Subject: [vmeet] IETF Island in Second Life

From: Lisa Dusseault <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:54:34 -0800

Hi,

Is anybody interested in virtual reality meetings?  I now work for
Linden Lab, creators of Second Life.  Among the many other things that
go on in SL, one can run effective meetings thanks to the stereo voice
conferencing support and aid of props such as slideshow boards.

The IESG held its first informal "telechat" in Second Life (SL) last
Thursday, and here's a snapshot
(http://www.facebook.com/#/photo.php?pid=3288486&id=702428291).  The
venue is "IETF Island", which Linden Lab is hosting on behalf of the
IETF and I'm the region administrator.  IETF people are welcome to use
the location (or anywhere else you like in SL) for conversations.  If
you know me IRL (In Real Life), or need setup/permission help with
IETF Island, feel free to ping me in SL where I'm "Rue Linden".

I also created a Second Life group called "IETF" which is free to
join.   I'm not entirely sure what its long-term role will be, it may
be too unwieldy to have a group for all IETFers to chat in-world.

What do vmeet participants think of this alternative? has anybody
already tried it?

Lisa

---

From: "John Buford" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 18:15:56 -0500

Sounds quite interesting.

How long did it take to get all the IESG participants
set up in the meeting once they got into SL?

Can large 3D spaces with large numbers of participants
be accommodated from an audio and presentation materials
standpoint?  For example, how would a virtual auditorium
work in SL?

John 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Lisa Dusseault
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 5:55 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [vmeet] IETF Island in Second Life

Hi,

Is anybody interested in virtual reality meetings?  I now work for Linden
Lab, creators of Second Life.  Among the many other things that go on in SL,
one can run effective meetings thanks to the stereo voice conferencing
support and aid of props such as slideshow boards.

The IESG held its first informal "telechat" in Second Life (SL) last
Thursday, and here's a snapshot
(http://www.facebook.com/#/photo.php?pid=3288486&id=702428291).  The venue
is "IETF Island", which Linden Lab is hosting on behalf of the IETF and I'm
the region administrator.  IETF people are welcome to use the location (or
anywhere else you like in SL) for conversations.  If you know me IRL (In
Real Life), or need setup/permission help with IETF Island, feel free to
ping me in SL where I'm "Rue Linden".

What do vmeet participants think of this alternative? has anybody already
tried it?

Lisa
_______________________________________________
NOTE WELL: This list operates according to
http://mipassoc.org/dkim/ietf-list-rules.html.
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vmeet

---

From: Lisa Dusseault <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:45:03 -0800

> set up in the meeting once they got into SL?

It varied.  we had bandwidth problems from our UK participants, one
made it work by reducing the visual detail thus releasing bandwidth
for audio,  but the other had to dial in after spending some time
tweaking preferences.   Everybody sorted out how they were going to
participate in advance, so the meeting itself did not start late.

> standpoint?

A region maxes out at 40 people, so while the IESG met comfortably in
one room, there's a numeric barrier there.   That barrier can be
surmounted in a way by holding a meeting around the intersection of 4
regions, upping the limit to 160 people.  We routinely have meetings
with more than 40 people in areas setup that way.

Audio works great for meetings of 2 to 20+, provided that everybody
has the bandwidth and the hardware (headsets are really important, as
with tools like Skype, to avoid mic/speaker feedback).  The
presentation material support depends on what is bought or built to
show presentations, there are "virtual" businesses that sell various
tools to assist in presentations and meetings.  I saw one yesterday
that sold a presentation board that pulled in Google Presentation
files from the Web.

For example, how would a virtual auditorium
> work in SL?

There are a number of examples.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Tomici/40/49/27: auditorium perched in
open air on a promontory
http://slurl.com/secondlife/BNP%20PARIBAS/109/63/25: a
business-appropriate glass auditorium
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Maryport/234/148/54 : where the SL Linux
User Group meets on a platform in a small parcel
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Montclair%20State%20CHSS/200/244/23: an
amphitheater split in two regions, part of Montclair State University
in world

One thing I can guarantee is we haven't seen more than the barest
beginnings of this process, the figuring out of how to do effective
collaboration in immersive spaces.  I am personally quite excited to
be part of this :)

Lisa

---

From: Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:20:56 -0500

Not having done much in SL, I'm curious what you see as the principal advantages compared to more boring tools like GoToMeeting and WebEx. Was interaction easier and, if so, how? Did the meeting feel more productive? Beyond seeing some avatars, what capabilities were used?

Can somebody dial in by phone or is this headset-only?

Henning

---

From: Marc Manthey <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 03:44:41 +0100

Am 20.01.2010 um 03:20 schrieb Henning Schulzrinne:

> I'm curious what you see as the principal advantages compared to  
> more boring tools like GoToMeeting and WebEx.

agreed  , i am just thinking, if the basic approach from SL is´nt   
more being "annonymous" and creating  an avatar out of your fantasy ,

so a " webcam experience" would bring the athmosphere back to "real  
life" quick

just my 2 cents

Marc

--  
Les enfants teribbles - research / deployment
Marc Manthey- Vogelsangerstrasse 97
50823 Köln - Germany
Geo: 50.945554, 6.920293
PGP/GnuPG: 0x1ac02f3296b12b4d
Tel.:0049-221-29891489
Mobil:0049-1577-3329231
opensource multiconferencing :
http://opencu.org.uk
blog: http://macbroadcast.org

Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and  
certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise).

Please note that according to the German law on data retention,  
information on every electronic information exchange with me is  
retained for a period of six months.

---

From: Lisa Dusseault <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 20:03:47 -0800

On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Henning Schulzrinne
<[email-masked]> wrote:
> Not having done much in SL, I'm curious what you see as the principal advantages compared to more boring tools like GoToMeeting and WebEx. Was interaction easier and, if so, how?

This is one of those "works for me" things:  not speaking for anybody
else, but I'm easily distracted.  I knit during many meetings so my
mind doesn't wander.  SL provides some of the same advantages but more
directly related to what's going on: viewing the avatars keeps my
focus on the proceedings, almost as much as real life and much more so
than a voice-only call.  This surprised me when I experienced it, and
I was also surprised that having meetings with a brass robot (my boss)
and a nautilus shell (my colleague) was interesting rather than
distracting.  YMMV.

I just wonder how many social responses are triggered by sight as well
as sound.  Is it a general human trait that it helps us listen to have
something to look at that represents the speaker?  How much does it
help if we can look at a face instead of a non-mammalian avatar or
image?  How much does it help if the visual focus is animated along
with the voice?  Would a smiling cartoon avatar in a meeting foster
cooperation compared to a frowny cartoon avatar?  Does this effect
strengthen with increased avatar realism or not?  I'm not the person
to study these things, but I read the studies avidly in between
working on the technology.

> Did the meeting feel more productive? Beyond seeing some avatars, what capabilities were used?

None as yet; next time we try this we're going to try a slide
presenter in-world.  I've been in other meetings with slide presenters
or shared video and that's been an aid, though so far no better than
real life (just cheaper).

> Can somebody dial in by phone or is this headset-only?

Yes you can dial into a group by phone, although I believe that's not
a feature available to all groups just yet.  The dial-an-avatar
feature only recently got added (for $:
https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2009/08/19/bye-bye-beta-avaline-dial-an-avatar-is-now-available-to-all-avatars)

The voice stuff is SIP by the way :)

Lisa

---

From: Dave CROCKER <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 06:14:28 -0800

On 1/19/2010 2:54 PM, Lisa Dusseault wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is anybody interested in virtual reality meetings?

Definitely.  Thanks!

In fact, I'd like to set up a test-drive session for the group, using this.

We've already done some others (webex and elluminate) that were useful exercises.

The impetus for this group came out of a plenary at the meeting where the 
virtual worlds BOF was first held.

The potential of mixing VW constructs into the mix of voice and presentation 
mechanisms struck me as significantly enriching the remote conferencing 
experience, by virtue (pun?) of providing some spatial information.

f/
-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net

---

From: "John Buford" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:46:31 -0500

One potential advantage of meetings in virtual worlds
leverages the spatial audio capability supported there.

For example, side conversations during a meeting 
can be achieved in a natural fashion by having the
conversants move slightly away from the principal meeting
location.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Dusseault [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 11:04 PM
To: Henning Schulzrinne
Cc: John Buford; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [vmeet] IETF Island in Second Life

On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Henning Schulzrinne <[email-masked]>
wrote:
> Not having done much in SL, I'm curious what you see as the principal
advantages compared to more boring tools like GoToMeeting and WebEx. Was
interaction easier and, if so, how?

This is one of those "works for me" things:  not speaking for anybody else,
but I'm easily distracted.  I knit during many meetings so my mind doesn't
wander.  SL provides some of the same advantages but more directly related
to what's going on: viewing the avatars keeps my focus on the proceedings,
almost as much as real life and much more so than a voice-only call.  This
surprised me when I experienced it, and I was also surprised that having
meetings with a brass robot (my boss) and a nautilus shell (my colleague)
was interesting rather than distracting.  YMMV.

I just wonder how many social responses are triggered by sight as well as
sound.  Is it a general human trait that it helps us listen to have
something to look at that represents the speaker?  How much does it help if
we can look at a face instead of a non-mammalian avatar or image?  How much
does it help if the visual focus is animated along with the voice?  Would a
smiling cartoon avatar in a meeting foster cooperation compared to a frowny
cartoon avatar?  Does this effect strengthen with increased avatar realism
or not?  I'm not the person to study these things, but I read the studies
avidly in between working on the technology.

> Did the meeting feel more productive? Beyond seeing some avatars, what
capabilities were used?

None as yet; next time we try this we're going to try a slide presenter
in-world.  I've been in other meetings with slide presenters or shared video
and that's been an aid, though so far no better than real life (just
cheaper).

> Can somebody dial in by phone or is this headset-only?

Yes you can dial into a group by phone, although I believe that's not a
feature available to all groups just yet.  The dial-an-avatar feature only
recently got added (for $:
https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2009/08/19/bye-bye-beta
-avaline-dial-an-avatar-is-now-available-to-all-avatars)

Lisa