Subject: Minutes IETF teleconference 20070620

From: Philippe Le Hegaret <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:42:24 +0000

W3C/IETF coordination

20 Jun 2007

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/w3c-ietf-coord/2007Jun/0009.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-irc

Attendees

   Present
          W3C: Thomas Roessler, Dan Connolly, Philippe Le Hégaret, Tim
          Berners-Lee
          IETF: John C Klensin, Leslie Daigle, Lisa Dusseault

   Regrets
          None

   Chair
          Thomas

   Scribe
          Philippe

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene; pick scribe; bash agenda
         2. [6]Link headers; Profile
         3. [7]Charmod normalization work
         4. [8]XML Schema and Language Tags (Lisa)
         5. [9]Progress on application/wsdl+xml and
            application/wspolicy+xml (Philippe)
         6. [10]Content-coding/transfer-coding values for HTTP -- how
            to register a new one? (Philippe)
         7. [11]Current state of HTTP chartering discussions (MNot)
         8. [12]XML Security Specs workshop announced (tlr)
         9. [13]draft-hartman-webauth-phishing-03 (Lisa)
        10. [14]tools.ietf.org to the rescue re 404 Internet Drafts?
        11. [15]HTML WG presence at Chicago IETF
        12. [16]HTML+E-Mail: who needs to talk?
        13. [17]IESG/IAB leadership changes
        14. [18]Next meeting
     * [19]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

Convene; pick scribe; bash agenda

   <scribe> scribe: Philippe

Link headers; Profile

   ACTION: Mark Nottingham to talk to ATOMPUB folks about link headers
   [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action01]

   ACTION: Mark Nottingham, Chris Newman and Ted Hardie to discuss
   adding Profile to the message header registry. [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action02]

   Dan: last time, we were talking about community review. rel=nofollow
   got me interested in this. I sent mail on March 26.

   John: I don't recall seeing anything I can use. if you resend your
   message, I will follow up

   ACTION: Dan to resent his March 26 message to John [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action03]

   Tim: was at the egov workshop. someone for google, talking about
   sidemaps, was saying that they don't believe in doing stuff through
   standard, they prefer to get people together. JL of Google who
   presented sitemaps did say they were interested in taking t it to
   W3C at one point.

   Dan: you can't use sitemaps without knowing the technology you're
   investing in.

Charmod normalization work

   [DONE] ACTION: John Klensin to review charmod normalization work
   ongoing in the W3C; Richard Ishida is the W3C contact. [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action04]

   John: I reviewed the document and didn't end up with questions. the
   ietf related work is stalled at this point so nothing really happen.

   [this item is closed]

XML Schema and Language Tags (Lisa)

   Lisa: questions regarding rfc 4646 and xml schema 1.0.
   ... we could try to work around but nicer to fix it

   Philippe: schema does allow language tags from 4646 from a lexical
   and value space perspective so the specs compatible. That's the good
   news. The only problem is the reference. The second edition of XML
   Schema 1.0 has updated reference from 1746 to 3066. The XML Schema
   Working Group debated whether to add "and successors" in the second
   edition but rejected the idea unfortunately. The good news is that
   the reference has been updated in the past, so we should be able to
   update the reference in a future 3rd edition. The bad news is that
   3rd ed isn't coming up any time soon. at least a year, probably
   longer ...

   Lisa: please relay our issue to your people

   Philippe: the "good news" is that we now realized that schema 1.1
   doesn't refer to RFC 4646, we need to fix that

   ACTION: plh to pass on the RFC 4646 reference issue to XML Schema WG
   [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action05]

Progress on application/wsdl+xml and application/wspolicy+xml
(Philippe)

   Philippe: We have a [25]W3C media type registration process. I need
   to send messages to IESG in order to register the media type. I did
   this, but I don't get feed-back and I don't what to answer when W3C
   Working Groups ask me for a progress report (besides "I sent the
   request".) Where should I look about the status of the March
   requests?

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2002/06/registering-mediatype

   Lisa: I don't really know about mime types. Ted used to do that in
   the past. Chris Newman is now replacing him.

   Dan: [26]IESG agenda is world readable. If we send a request and
   don't see it on the agenda, is it dropped?

     [26] http://www.ietf.org/IESG/agenda.html

   Lisa: I don't know exactly. would need to investigate. I'm not aware
   of a page that will give the status of meme registration

   Tim: it would be useful for the input queue to be visible. Consider
   this as a request from W3C to IETF. A tracking system for example.

   Dan: the tracking system is only for internet draft and we don't use
   that

   <JcK> Lisa, there is no reason why a MIME registration request for
   something requiring approval couldn't go into the main tracker, is
   there? Or treat it as a liaison statement?

   ACTION: Philippe to follow up with Chris Newman on media type
   registration system [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action07]

Content-coding/transfer-coding values for HTTP -- how to register a new
one? (Philippe)

   Philippe: One of our groups (Efficient XML Interchange) is
   considering adding a content-coding/transfer-coding for HTTP. The
   HTTP RFC indicates that there is a registration mechanism in place
   but doesn't give details. what's the state of the registration
   system? Is there one? Are we the first to add a new value?

   Lisa: JSR did in past, so you're not the first one. See
   [28]"pack200-gzip Network Transfer Format for Java Archives
   [JSR200]"

     [28] http://www.iana.org/assignments/http-parameters

   Philippe: send mail to iesg?

   Lisa: no, there is no review list. You could copy the IESG, but IANA
   is the responsible party ...

   Dan: input queue where?

   Lisa: [email-masked]

   John: there might be a problem in here...

   Dan: there's a gzip in the jsr one. these are all compression
   schemes?!

   John: content-type? content-transfer-encoding?

   Philippe: [29]content-coding and [30]transfer-coding.

     [29] http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec3.html#sec3.5
     [30] http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec3.html#sec3.6

   John: concerned about layering of packing/unpacking the argument has
   to do with the layering of packing and unpacking. gzip for example
   has a 8bits coding.

   Dan: transfer-coding — is this the same as MIME
   content-transfer-encoding

   John: if it isn't MIME coding, then it's not a problem

   Dan: http, not mime

   Philippe: not talking about mime

   John: ok, sorry for confusing

Current state of HTTP chartering discussions (MNot)

   [Mark isn't around unfortunately.]

   Lisa: the BOF was approved. it's on the [31]draft ietf agenda. I
   asked Mark to send out a wide announcement. the charter discussion
   are ongoing on the w3c hosted mailing list. the charter is in no way
   finished and will change a lot

     [31] https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_agenda_html.cgi?meeting_num=69

   Philippe: no comment right now. Yves is tracking.

   Dan: will he be there?

   Philippe: will make sure he goes

   Thomas: I'll also be there

   Philippe: I will talk to Yves

XML Security Specs workshop announced (tlr)

   Thomas: we have issued a [32]call for participation in a workshop on
   xml signature and xml encryption suites of specifications next
   steps. 25/26 September 2007 — Mountain View, California. only
   requirement is to have a position paper. not limited to working
   group participants. will be happy to brief at the security area in
   chicago

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/ws/cfp

   lisa: also the application area open meeting

   ACTION: Thomas to send email to Sam Hartman regarding the W3C
   security workshop cfp [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action08]

draft-hartman-webauth-phishing-03 (Lisa)

   Lisa: I'm the sponsor for this draft. sollicited a number of experts
   reviews. new reviews would be timely. it talks about uri.

   ACTION: Thomas to solicit review from the Web Security Context WG
   [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action09]

   LIsa: it's finishing last call now. could wait a couple of weeks. I
   might allow longer time if there are more changes required

tools.ietf.org to the rescue re 404 Internet Drafts?

   <DanC> is the "let's not talk about the IETF secretariat" ban still
   in place? I see various tools.ietf.org deelies that suggest that
   Internet Drafts don't need to go 404 any more

   Dan: internet drafts that go 404. cost time to recover from. last
   time, there were changes in the secretariat and it wasn't the right
   time to bring the issue. Is now ok? ISOC maintains nice URIs:
   [35]http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-ietf-atompub-format/

     [35] http://ietfreport.isoc.org/idref/draft-ietf-atompub-format/

   Lisa: the uri announced will still change.

   Leslie: it won't away until the IETF process change

   Dan: which part of the process say that I will change the uri and
   won't give clue of the new version such as "this looks out of date,
   you might want to use this other link instead"

   John: we've got a database of IDs and the entries are linked to the
   latest version

   Tim: but you don't keep the URI as a pointer

   John: yes, it disappears after 6 months

   Lisa: could be an entrance to the latest version

   Thomas: ... or to tracker

   <DanC> [36]progress on ietf.org persistence, structured archive

     [36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ietf-w3c/2005Aug/0000.html

   Lisa: what I heard is that we should give a pointer to the latest
   document after 6 months. The IETF Administrative Director (IAD), Ray
   Pelletier, seems the right individual to contact for that.

   <knitbot> E.g., if you have
   [37]http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-net-transparent-04
   .txt, you have no clue that
   [38]http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-net-transparent-05
   .txt is real

     [37] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-net-transparent-04.txt
     [38] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-net-transparent-05.txt

   Dan: I'd like something like "you dialed the wrong number, the new
   number is ..."

   Tim: if you can return 302 or 301, this would be even better.

   Leslie: people have scripts that will rely on 404. the point is well
   taken but it is an administrative discussion, nothing philosophical.

   Lisa: would be useful to send an email to IAD

   ACTION: Dan to follow up with Ray Pelletier on 404 for RFCs keeping
   Leslie and Lisa in the loop [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action10]

HTML WG presence at Chicago IETF

   Dan: W3C created a new HTML working group. [40]somebody asked it to
   be presented in Chicago. I won't be there. Should we make sure to
   present it? what does the IETF wnat to know. we have 485 members in
   the group

     [40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0335.html

   Leslie: there might some people interested. Mark Nottingham would be
   the guy to figure if an announcement is needed or not

   Dan: I'll follow up with him then

   ACTION: Dan to follow up with Mark Nottingham about announcing the
   HTML Working Group in Chicago [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action11]

HTML+E-Mail: who needs to talk?

   Thomas: we had a workshop back in May but Karl Dubost is in Japan,
   unable to attend here. John is concerned about it

   Dan: Chris Lilley briefed me about the [42]workshop. extensive tail
   of wow from people trying to send html to large crowds. "Can't use
   CSS", etc. there is a knowledge of what one can or cannot do when
   sending HTML

     [42] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/html-mail/

   John: my only concern is that I don't want to be surprised on either
   side. many people want to make things happen.

   Dan: don't have sense of what's going forward.

   Thomas: possible team submission in september? the most useful next
   step is an email exchange between John and Karl, with Dan in the
   loop

   Dan: add Chris Lilley and Daniel Glazman

   John: and Chris Newman. the ietf email community seems concerned.

   Thomas: possibly about the [43]"Email security and client
   development - Chris Newman, Sun Microsystems" position paper

     [43] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/html-mail/html-email-security

   <DanC> [44]Workshop Papers List

     [44] http://www.w3.org/2007/05/html-mail/papers

   John: there hasn't been any response

   Dan: mail message or position paper?

   John: I noticed a mail message

   Dan: I can ask the workshop chairs if their level of responses was
   unusual

   ACTION: Dan to contact the workshop chairs and bring back a possible
   follow-up plan [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action12]

   Dan:[46]Chris Newman looks like a recipe for disaster: "I don't have
   time to attend the meeting, ..."

     [46] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-mail/2007May/0002.html

IESG/IAB leadership changes

   Leslie: recent changes: Ted Hardie finished his term as application
   area director and was replaced by Chris Newman. Changed of chair of
   IAB (from Leslie to Olaf Kolkman). New IETF/IESG Chair as well: Russ
   Housley.

   Dan: who should we add/remove from the mailing list? (I don't think
   the IETF chair has been subscribed before)

   Leslie: there has been an action to review the subscriptions, not
   sure if they need to be on the list. I'm still on the IAB

   ACTION: Leslie to check with Mark and Chris whether they will attend
   or not in the future [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action13]

   Thomas: future agenda need to have more explicit attendance
   expectation

Next meeting

   Next chair: Lisa

   <DanC> (IETF meets 3 times a year, which suggests looking 4 months
   forward...)

   Lisa: IETF meeting in December 2-7. Tentative: October 23, 2007.
   10AM ET, 7AM PT

   <DanC> [48]Sydney and Boston times on 23 Oct

     [48] http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=10&day=23&year=2007&p1=240&p2=43&p3=-1&p4=-1

   <DanC> OK for me: October 23, 2007. 10AM ET

   Dan: it's convenient to hear about the call at t-7 and t-1 day btw

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark Nottingham to talk to ATOMPUB folks about
   link headers [recorded in
   [49]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark Nottingham, Chris Newman and Ted Hardie to
   discuss adding Profile to the message header registry. [recorded in
   [50]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Dan to contact the W3C e-mail workshop chairs and
   bring back a possible follow-up plan on Chris Newman security
   message [recorded in
   [51]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action12]
   [NEW] ACTION: Dan to follow up with Mark Nottingham about announcing
   the HTML Working Group in Chicago [recorded in
   [52]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action11]
   [NEW] ACTION: Dan to follow up with Ray Pelletier on 404 for RFCs
   keeping Leslie and Lisa in the loop [recorded in
   [53]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action10]
   [NEW] ACTION: Leslie to check with Mark and Chris whether they will
   attend or not in the future [recorded in
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action13]
   [NEW] ACTION: Philippe to follow up with Chris Newman on media
   registration system [recorded in
   [55]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action07]
   [NEW] ACTION: Philippe to bring the issue of RFC 4646 to the XML
   Schema Working Group [recorded in
   [56]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action06]
   [NEW] ACTION: Thomas to send email to Sam Hartman regarding the W3C
   security workshop cfp [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action08]
   [NEW] ACTION: Thomas to solicit review of
   draft-hartman-webauth-phishing-03 from the Web Security Context WG
   [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action09]
   [DONE] ACTION: Dan to resent his March 26 message to John [recorded
   in [59]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action03]
   [DONE] ACTION: John Klensin to review charmod normalization work
   [recorded in
   [60]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action04]

---

From: Leslie Daigle <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:25:07 -0400

Thanks for the quick turn around!

A few comments in-line (small details, and a few
Leslie/Lisa-isms):

>    Leslie: it won't away until the IETF process change

s/won't away/won't go away/

>    Pelletier, seems the right individual to contact for that.

Not that it especially matters, but this last comment was mine (not
Lisa).

>    the guy to figure if an announcement is needed or not

And this last comment was Lisa, not Leslie.

(Yes, yes, I know -- all Canadians sound the same ;-) eh? ;-) ).

>    [47]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action13]

Actually, my action was to check with Olaf & Chris (we assume we'll
get Mark on the calls if we can figure out a timeframe that works ;-)
There was just a sudden lack of conviction we'd managed to finish
the discussions with Chris & Olaf, gotten them on the list, TOLD them
about the call, etc ;-) ).

Leslie.

-- 

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality:
      Yours to discover."
                                 -- ThinkingCat
Leslie Daigle
[email-masked]
-------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: Philippe Le Hegaret <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 09:37:20 -0400

I incorporated the comments I received so far, so here is the latest
version of the minutes:

                         W3C/IETF coordination

20 Jun 2007

   [2]Agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

Attendees

   Present

   Regrets
          None

   Chair
          Thomas

   Scribe
          Philippe

Contents

     * [4]Topics

Link headers; Profile

   [this item is closed]

   Dan: input queue where?

   Lisa: [email-masked]

   Dan: http, not mime

   Dan: will he be there?

   Leslie: it won't go away until the IETF process change

   Leslie: what I heard is that we should give a pointer to the latest
   document after 6 months. The IETF Administrative Director (IAD), Ray
   Pelletier, seems the right individual to contact for that.

   Lisa: there might some people interested. Mark Nottingham would be
   the guy to figure if an announcement is needed or not

   John: I noticed a [45]mail message

     [45] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-mail/2007May/0002.html

   ACTION: Dan to contact the workshop chairs and bring back a possible
   follow-up plan [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action12]

   ACTION: Leslie to check with Olaf and Chris whether they will attend
   or not in the future [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-ietf-minutes.html#action13]

Next meeting

   Next chair: Lisa

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Leslie to check with Olaf and Chris whether they will