Subject: WGTOOLS BOF at IETF 53

From: Bernard Aboba <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:55:50 -0800 (PST)

At IETF 53, we will be scheduling a BOF on tools to manage WG drafts
and issues. The agenda will include time for demonstration of tools, and
discussions with tool users. 

If you are currently using one or more tools to manage your WG drafts and
issues, and are willing to demonstrate them or discuss the pros and
cons at the BOF, please send me mail. 

I'd also be interested in any feedback on the problem statement: 

   a. What problems the tools need to solve
   b. Required security functionality
   c. Reporting requirements
   d. Requirements for integration with WG mailing lists and web pages
   e. Requirements for integration with existing IESG tools

Also, Paul Hoffman has now created a mailing list for discussion on WG
tools: [email-masked].

---

From: Stephen Casner <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:55:11 -0800 (PST)

Bernard,

Does the WG mailing list based on ietf.org qualify as a tool
appropriate for discussion in this BOF?  I would like to see some
improvements in the mailing list management features so that it works
better with less overhead.

We have changed the AVT list to member-only-posting in order to
control spam.  When non-members post, the list admins (the WG
co-chairs) get a message asking for approval, but nothing is sent to
the poster.  This works, in that it avoids the wrath of open-list
advocates, but what it means is that admins are forced into the role
of manual spam filters.  We don't even get to set up procmail filters
to help.  And, the admins must be attentive to the approval messages
in order to minimize delay for valid messages from non-members.

I would like to see three changes made to the IETF mailman system:

1.  Add a feature to allow members of any ietf.org mailing list to
    post to a WG list if the WG list admin so selects.  This keeps the
    list open to cross-posting without having to subscribe.

2.  Allow the WG list admin to select a mode where posters who are not
    approved get an auto-reply asking them to subscribe, and allow the
    WG list admin to edit the content of that message.  This is
    actually an advantage for non-member posters in that they will
    know right away that their message did not get through rather than
    having to wait for the admin to take approval action.  Some people
    have been offended by these auto-reply messages in the past, but
    allowing ietf-list cross posting should keep many of those
    potentially offended parties from seeing the auto-replies, and
    allowing the WG admin to edit the content of the auto-reply
    provides an opportunity for the wording to be made appropriate.

3.  Change the member-only-posting to be based on the From: field
    rather than the Sender: field.  Apparently it was decided to use
    the Sender field when mailman was set up because this was
    considered stronger protection against spam.  However, spammers
    can set both fields with equal ease.  The problem is that people
    who use aliases to join mailing lists either have to sign up with
    their non-aliased address or the list admins have to manually
    approve the member's mail or add the member's alias to the
    approved non-member list.

I have discussed all these issues with Stanley, but his response in
each case is that these are not problems because the list admin can
handle it.  Yes, but we need to reduce the load on the wg admins who
are often the chairs.  With these features in place, the load (or
requirement for attentiveness) would be reduced significantly.

Adding features 1 and 2 would probably require some programming.
Hence, if some programming resources might become available and if
part of the purpose of the BOF is to determine how such resources
should be allocated, then mailing list improvements might qualify.

							-- Steve

---

From: Andy Bierman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:08:52 -0800

>Bernard,

Your request (2) may be supported.
The general options page has a yes/no choice for
  "Send mail to poster when their posting is held for approval?"
(dont_respond_to_post_requests option). 
I don't know if a subscribe request is sent, but this does let
the sender know immediately their mail was held for approval.

Andy