Subject: Re: Foreign language jabber

From: "Adrian Farrel" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 09:26:37 -0000

Re-send
> > Would it make sense to run foreign langauge jabber rooms for
> > "simultaneous translation"?
> Are you 4 weeks early? :)
Rarely better than 6 months late.

> Seriously, what's the problem statement here?  We want to engage people
> who don't understand languages?  We want to improve the communication
> skills of speakers so that you can make sense of them more easily?
> ....?

We want to engage people who don't understand the language of the "presenter". In
particular, we want to engage people who form a very significant part of the audience,
such as those from the host nation.

This is largely a courtesy, but should also improve the quality of the drafts. From our
perspective it simply requires that we set up the jabber rooms and offer them for use. We
could also spend time encouraging members of the host nation to participate including
getting the "how to jabber" instructions translated.

Improving the skill of the speakers would be great. And insisting that presentations are
made only by people with clear diction and perfect pronunciation might be a solution, but
it is perhaps unreasonable to require a group of authors to subcontract the discussion of
their draft (although this is perfectly possible and I might be able to make a few dollars
on the side doing this :-)

Adrian

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 20:13:56 +0900

I have worked with simultaneous translators before.  they are highly 
skilled folks who usually need a prepared statement beforehand to 
really do it well.

I think it is a great idea, but I don't know how many would be able to 
handle it - but agree we should try.  One thing that helps is wordy 
slides.  Most of the non native english speakers read english fairly 
well.  I know this flies in the face of 'no slldeware' but in this case 
it is excusable, i think.

a.

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From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 20:00:22 +0200 (EET)

> such as those from the host nation.

What are the chances such folks are able to contribute back to the WGs 
if they don't know the language (well enough at least)?

This seems to have an awfully low ROI (whether in money, energy, 
hassle, organization etc.).

There could be some translation etc. of course -- e.g., if the number 
of "natives" is high, but that seems to be something to be organized 
by those who want to provide this kind of service.

> We could also spend time encouraging members of the host nation to
> participate including getting the "how to jabber" instructions
> translated.

Well, I guess such natives might be nice to have -- to ensure the
coffers don't get empty by paying the attendance fee.  Otherwise,
they'd probably be less than useful.  After all, our mission is
engineering, not education.

> Improving the skill of the speakers would be great.  And insisting
> that presentations are made only by people with clear diction and
> perfect pronunciation might be a solution, but it is perhaps
> unreasonable to require a group of authors to subcontract the
> discussion of their draft (although this is perfectly possible and I
> might be able to make a few dollars on the side doing this :-)

Would that include banning UK English speakers who nobody can 
understand anyway? ;-)

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings

---

From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 13:20:06 -0800

--On 6. mars 2004 09:26 +0000 Adrian Farrel <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Improving the skill of the speakers would be great.

actually improving the skill of the people who ask questions would be even 
better :-)
we haven't managed to get people to be consistent about giving their name 
yet (except this "pksvl" guy who seems to pronounce his name with no vowels 
:-) - I think the chairs also need to reinforce the idea that you get your 
comments across more easily when you speak slowly!

if we don't do simul-translation, a sensible use of languagespecific jabber 
rooms is probably to ask "hva mente han" (what did he mean) - especially 
when people make jokes, this can be rather useful!

---

From: "Lisa Dusseault" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 16:23:07 -0800

> when people make jokes, this can be rather useful!

Also, I suspect the English-only jabber rooms are *still* useful for those
who speak other languages, if the reader is used to combining text and
voice.  Sometimes I don't hear well what the speaker said and I review the
Jabber scribe's entries to fill in the blanks.  This can be even more true
for non-English speakers -- my experience with speaking foreign languages is
that breaking up the stream of sounds into words is hard.  The Jabber scribe
does that for you.

Lisa

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 10:04:48 +0900

On 7 mar 2004, at 06.20, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:

> we haven't managed to get people to be consistent about giving their 
> name yet

And I am sure that even when folks do give their names, the scribe 
cannot parse it.  But, in some of the rooms I have noticed that folks 
who are not taking the role of scribe are often good at filling in that 
information.  In fact the times when several folks contributed to the 
scribing, even though only one was the targeted scribe, seem to work 
the best.

>  think the chairs also need to reinforce the idea that you get your 
> comments across more easily when you speak slowly

This is a an issue for presenters as well.  I know I have a tendency to 
speak too quickly.  One thing that I know contributes to my urge to 
speak quickly and conflicts with my desire to speak more slowly with 
greater enunciation is the shortness of time one often has for making 
points either as a presenter or a questioner at the mike.

a.

---

From: Thierry Ernst <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:36:35 +0900

Hi Pekka,

I beg to differ ... See below,

> hassle, organization etc.).

Depending for who. Some people are eager to learn both about the
technology and the IETF procedure, but the language is sometimes a
barrier to them. If we think about us (the IETF) as an organization,
then it's benefical for the entire community.

> engineering, not education.

People in the world speak different languages, and their computing
skills is not a function of their English avilities. So, probably we
could learn from them more by being open to language and cultural
differences ... Also, since the Internet technology spread the world, I
think engineers have the responsability to educate the people about the
technology they develop. This means we should pay more attention about
being understood...WG chairs have a responsability in this.

> > unreasonable to quire a group of authors to subcontract the

I do personaly understand British English much better than American
English, I guess it all depends which country you have been too ...

Regards,
Thierrry

---

From: Pekka Savola <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:39:09 +0200 (EET)

It seems our experiences from English abilities vary a lot.  I guess
it may be because my background is in a small country, where you can't
really get by to even attain a certain level of computing skills
without knowing a degree of English.  This even applies to people from
France ;-). Maybe in countries like China or Japan, which you may be
more familiar with, this could be slightly different.

> then it's benefical for the entire community.

I guess this depends a lot.  In many countries, if you don't
understand English (well enough), there is no chance you could be a
good at anything as international as Internet activies -- you would 
not be able to read literature, understand specifications, communicate 
with your peers, etc.

Arguably, there may be societies (I guess big ones like China and 
Japan) where people can live in a "cocoon" of a sort, insulated from 
the rest of the world.  They might be good people, with a lot to give 
if they understood us and we them.

But this seems to be something that is a very difficult problem to
solve, except by focusing on making our communication better, and
encouraging those folks to learn the language, and start e.g., from
mailing-lists -- written/read contribution is much easier than
speaking up in the mike (so that folks understand you) or listening to
bad presentations (which are probably performed by non-native people).

The only reasonable approach for an international organization,
spanning dozens if not a hundred countries/languages is to focus on
using a common language.  Doing otherwise would be waste of resources.> > engineering, not education.

> skills is not a function of their English avilities. 

No disagreement here -- but the point is, that especially in many
countries, achieving a certain threshold of computing skills requires
attaining some other degree of ability to communicate in English.

> Also, since the Internet technology spread the world, I

Yep -- for example, people like us very often are the ones that invent
the local names for new technologies, educate people about those, etc.  
-- but that doesn't mean that those people who are being educated (and
can not understand English, for example) must be contributing directly
to the IETF activities.

---

From: Derek Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:38:55 -0500

> English, I guess it all depends which country you have been too ...

I'll note that knowing English is not necessarily sufficient to
understand the goings-on in the IETF.  My mother understands
English quite well, but would have no clue what I meant if I
gave her an IETF presentation.

I think there is a technical-superset of standard English which is
currently "required" to understand a normal IETF presentation.
Indeed, I would assert there are MULTIPLE supersets required across
different areas and working groups.  The vocabulary of the Security
Area is very different than the vocabulary of the Routing Area.

> Thierrry

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       [email-masked]             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant