Subject: RE: 60th IETF - DRAFT Agenda

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:10:48 -0500

> > Friday, August 6, 2004
> > 0800-0900 Continental Breakfast - Harbor Island Foyer
> > 0900-1130 Morning Sessions	
> > RTG  rtgwg      Routing Area Working Group
> 
> Please schedule RTGWG earlier in the week if possible.
> I'm catching a flight on Friday.

Same is true for me and I would guess there will be more
people like us.

Regards
Mukesh

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From: David Meyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:29:18 -0700

>> Same is true for me and I would guess there will be more

I'm one.

Dave

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From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:59:07 +0200

Hm.

We had four Friday slots in San Francisco.
We had three Friday slots in Vienna.
We had five Friday slots in Minneapolis.
We published the meeting in Korea with Friday schedule, and then did not 
use it.
We published the meeting in San Diego with Friday schedule, and expected 
them to be used.

And people schedule flights out that won't let them attend the Friday slot, 
and then they complain about their WG meetings being (re)scheduled to 
Friday. Of course.

At a time when we are running out of meeting slots, I don't see us removing 
Friday.

I wonder if the Right Thing is to add another Friday session? Or even two - 
make it a full day of work?
The weekend is shot anyway for those of us who don't live nearby....

                          Harald

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From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:20:28 -0400

At 9:59 PM +0200 7/18/04, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:
>I wonder if the Right Thing is to add another Friday session? Or 
>even two - make it a full day of work?

FWIW, I would be happy to see us schedule one or two Friday afternoon 
slots at future meetings.  This could lead to fewer conflicts and 
more opportunities to get together with folks during the week.

As it is, I usually book my flights so that I can be present on 
Fridays, and that often ends up being a waste of time and money (for 
the extra hotel night, etc.) because so few meetings are scheduled on 
Friday mornings.  I was particularly annoyed by the fact that there 
were no Friday meetings schedule in Korea, because I had multiple 
conflicts in other slots at least some of which could have been 
resolved by using the additional slot.

Margaret

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From: Melinda Shore <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:03:04 -0400

On Sunday, July 18, 2004, at 03:59 PM, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:
> I wonder if the Right Thing is to add another Friday session? Or even 
> two - make it a full day of work?

I think that's an excellent suggestion, if for no other reason
than it would help reduce scheduling conflicts.

Melinda

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From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:01:26 +0200 (CEST)

Harald,

As far as I can see, there is no social scheduled for Tuesday evening.
Wouldn't it be possible to use that evening for the meetings scheduled for
Friday?

> We published the meeting in Korea with Friday schedule, and then did not

[...]

> two - make it a full day of work?

That is exactly the problem: this is the summer season. Flights are often
sold out and one has to make travel plans well in advance.  That gives you
a choice: fly back on Friday morning and risk missing sessions, or fly
back on Saturday, just to stay in San Diego for a 2 hour meeting that
might be cancelled.

I think that Friday should either be a full day or not used at all, not
the random affair it is at the moment.  Also, if we keep the Friday, can
we leave the network running until (say) 6pm instead of noon, so people
can at least get some work done?

> The weekend is shot anyway for those of us who don't live nearby....

For me and most Europeans: if I leave on Friday, I'm home on Saturday
morning and most of my weekend is still there.  If I leave on Saturday, at
least half my weekend is gone.

Henk

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---

From: Aaron Falk <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:32:11 -0700

> two - make it a full day of work?

OK by me.  I guess my slight preference would be to add only a single 
afternoon session.  However, would you consider an evening session if 
you did a 'full day'?  As long as I'm spending the night i wouldn't  
begrudge another evening session...

Nevertheless, it's probably too late to go all day in San Diego as many 
folks have their flights and check-out dates set.

--aaron

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From: Greg Daley <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:56:17 +1000

Hi Aaron,

> folks have their flights and check-out dates set.

While I think that putting more value in Friday is an appropriate
solution, in most cases, I'm typically leaving on the friday evening
and arriving home on sunday or monday.

There may be only one flight each day (or each 2 days) going in the
direction of my small country, bizarre connections to be made or date
shifts to be contended with, depending on the location of the IETF meeting.

If we could ensure that people have enough time to get to the airport
for departures in the evening (20:00 or so, including security
clearance?), that would help make extending friday sessions palatable.

I'd guess that if people were able to go from one side of the US to
get to the other side overnight or the same evening, then that would be
beneficial to some participants too.

Not many people like travelling on the weekend, but I prefer not to
have to travel in the following week.

Greg Daley
(Antipodean).

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From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:39:04 +0200

> Wouldn't it be possible to use that evening for the meetings scheduled for

I'm very much against that. We need that evening available for unplanned
or unofficial meetings - there is no other free time available.

The IETF lasts 4.5 days. Why do some people consistently plan travel as if
it lasts 4 days?

I think Friday afternoon would be problematic, though. It would force people
who tried to get home the same day into bad airport congestion.

    Brian

---

From: Alex Zinin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:55:24 +0400

FWIW, I normally fly out on Saturdays so I can attend Friday meetings. This time
I wasn't flexible with my flight (an international to Moscow). Besides, after a
week worth of AD work, it would be somewhat hard for me to chair RTGWG, that'll
be meeting for the first time with a very aggressive agenda.

-- 
Alex
http://www.psg.com/~zinin

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From: Markus Hofmann <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:36:11 -0400

Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC) wrote:

> sold out and one has to make travel plans well in advance.  

In this spirit... When can we hope to see the *final* agenda?

Thanks,
   Markus

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From: Mark Allman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:23:52 -0400

> The IETF lasts 4.5 days. Why do some people consistently plan travel
> as if it lasts 4 days?

Er, because 2-3 days of IETF is enough to drain most of us?!  But,
really, you can replace "IETF" in the above with any workshop / meeting
/ conference.  IMO, people are always going to cut out early --
especially on Fridays.  We're not going to change this.

That said, spreading things out to try to reduce the conflicts and
requiring agenda requests earlier both sound like fine ideas to me.

allman

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From: "Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:21:44 +0200 (CEST)

> or unofficial meetings - there is no other free time available.

This was just a proposal for this IETF, where Friday seems to cause a lot
of problems.

> The IETF lasts 4.5 days. Why do some people consistently plan travel as if

No, it lasts between 4 and 4.5 days. Sometimes Friday morning is used,
sometimes it is cancelled, sometimes it is just second sessions of WG's
that met earlier in the week (and may have run out of agenda topics).

So, if it is 4.5 days, then we should spread out the sessions more over
the week and make sure that there is always an interesting program on
Friday morning.  (And also keep the network running until late Friday
afternoon).

Henk

---

From: Jeffrey Haas <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:08:09 -0400

Harald,

> The weekend is shot anyway for those of us who don't live nearby....

The driving factor for me leaving "early" on Friday was that the only
flight on our "Airline of Choice" that left on Friday leaves at 2pm.
This essentially wipes the day for me.

If the session was a full day session, I could have justified the expense
to my company for the additional day of hotel, etc. a bit better.

-- 
Jeff Haas 
NextHop Technologies

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From: Andy Bierman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:13:50 -0700

>or unofficial meetings - there is no other free time available.

There's the other 49 weeks in the year ;-)
The IETF meets only 3 partial weeks a year.
Priority should go to official WG meetings during that time.
Unofficial meetings can be held on Friday (and often are).

>who tried to get home the same day into bad airport congestion.

I'm not saying anybody would actually want the Friday
afternoon slot, but if we need more slots, then eventually
we will have to use it.

>   Brian

Andy

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From: Sam Hartman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:53:05 -0400

>>>>> "Mark" == Mark Allman <[email-masked]> writes:

    >> The IETF lasts 4.5 days. Why do some people consistently plan
    >> travel as if it lasts 4 days?

    Mark> Er, because 2-3 days of IETF is enough to drain most of us?!
    Mark> But, really, you can replace "IETF" in the above with any
    Mark> workshop / meeting / conference.  IMO, people are always
    Mark> going to cut out early -- especially on Fridays.  We're not
    Mark> going to change this.

And this is fine.  But if some meeting you care about gets scheduled
on Friday, then you need to be preapred to accept that you won't make
it or to adjust your schedule so you can make it.

---

From: Mark Allman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:39:29 -0400

> it or to adjust your schedule so you can make it.

Absolutely.  That was not my point.  My point was that the leaving early
phenomenon is not IETF specific and I don't envision a way to stop the
practice.  I.e., adding one afternoon session might keep more people
there in the morning, but then you've just moved the problem.  If we
need the time, we need the time.  We pack a week pretty full as it is.
So, if we need to go to a longer day on Friday then sure.  All I am
saying is that is not going to solve the issue of folks wanting to cut
out early.

allman