Subject: Forward planning: non-clash list for review

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:39:23 +0100

Hi,

The IAD is working on IETF meeting dates for 2008 and beyond.

Here's a draft list of other bodies whose meetings we want to avoid,
divided into (A) those we MUST NOT clash with, and (B) those we prefer
not to clash with.

Please let the IAD (in cc) know by the end of January at the latest of any
errors or omissions in this list. But please remember that scheduling is an
art, not a science, and we can't put a body on this list because one or two
people may wish to attend it as well as the IETF - we need to be sure that
there is significant overlap, especially for list (A).

     Brian

(A) Bodies we MUST NOT clash with

APNIC
APRICOT
ARIN
3GPP *
3GPP2 *
ICANN *
IEEE 802 *
ITU-T *
LANIC
NANOG
OMA *
RIPE
W3C *

* official IETF liaisons, contact liaison manager for calendar details

(B) Bodies we prefer not to clash with:

ACM SIGCOMM
AfNOG
ANSI T10
ANSI T11
Connectathon
Crypto conference series
GGF *
IEEE Infocom
IEEE Security and Privacy symposium
IEEE IMxxx and IEEE NOMSxxx
IEEE IPOM
ISOC NDSS
MFA Forum *
SANOG
TIA
Unicode *
Usenix events (such as OSDI, SANE, LISA)

* official IETF liaisons, contact liaison manager for calendar details

---

From: Cullen Jennings <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:44:58 -0800

On list B, I would consider adding

VON (Spring and Fall)

We did conflict with this one year and it turned out that a many of the
presenters at VON where also some of the key contributors in RAI. Since then
VON has attempted to watch the IETF schedule and avoid conflicts.

Of course list A and B are both so long that they may just cover 100% of the
year making list B irrelevant :-)

Cullen

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:04:28 -0600

I'd prefer to see NENA on list B too.

As emergency services ramps up using IP, it will be likely that the only 
folks who can discuss, present and educate those in that organization on 
how IP can accomplish what they want are from the RAI area, and having a 
conflict with their meetings will cause fairly non-IP savvy folks to file 
in the holes of the meeting - which causes *a lot of* damage control in the 
month after the meeting.

This could fit on a List C, but it would be nice to have

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:14:47 -0600

I just noticed that the Dallas IETF will be at the Anatole hotel.  
It's a very nice hotel, in general, BUT . . .

I've lived in the Dallas area for most of the last twenty years, and  
have had the dubious honor of attending many events at that hotel.  
There are are some important things to know about the logistics as  
you plan your between-meeting schedules, ad-hocs, bar bofs, and  
things of that sort.

Cars are MANDATORY, but almost useless, due to traffic issues.

First off, the hotel is in the middle of Hell. It's on Interstate 35,  
surrounded by a no-mans land territory in which I would be unwilling  
to walk while wearing body armor and carrying an automatic rifle  
without an entire platoon of people similarly equipped and helicopter  
gunships and medevac on standby. The little strip along the highway  
is only terrifying, but once you get off of that you walk in the  
Valley of the Shadow of Death itself. It MIGHT be a little safer than  
urban Iraq is right now, but not by much.

Second, there is very little in the way of restaurants or  
entertainment within walking distance (like, absolutely nothing I'm  
aware of) anyhow.

There are a number of dining facilities in the hotel, but they will  
not be adequate to the number of people we're bringing. This means  
that many of us will be going off-campus (in cars) for meals.  The  
traffic in this area is HORRIBLE around peak hours -- between 7:00 AM  
and 7:00 PM weekdays. I'd estimate a minimum of twenty minutes  
transit time each way for anything you want to go do, and longer if  
you want to find a decent place. Imagine the worst traffic you've  
seen in Washington DC, New York City, or Highway 101 in California.  
Then imagine it worse, if you can. That's a good day in Dallas, and  
some days get very bad indeed.

The good news (hah!) is you're only a few blocks from Dallas' most  
notorious (but recently somewhat cleaned up) red-light district. The  
bad news is that this is a very scary place with high levels of  
criminality, unlike any place I'm aware of in Europe (they're  
probably there, but tourists don't find them).  The worse news is  
that the housing projects are on the other side. While the hotel  
itself maintains some security in parking areas, I'd suggest leaving  
NOTHING of value in your car. Also, study up on "car jacking" and  
ways to avoid it.

Dallas cabs are very expensive, and almost impossible to hail if you  
get away from the hotels. Keep a list of cab company phone numbers  
with you if you're going to rely on taxis. The good news is that the  
taxis themselves are fairly well-regulated and unlikely to completely  
abuse you.

Avoid reliance on public mass transportation in this area at all  
costs. The area is not served by trains, and the buses are used only  
by local residents who are used to coping with them.

--
Dean

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:26:29 -0600

Dean

As usual, you've understated how bad it can be....

---

From: Basavaraj Patil <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:59:29 -0600

While Dean is indeed stating some facts especially w.r.t the need for a car,
problems finding taxis and the absence of restaurants within walking
distance of the hotel, it is not all gloom and doom.

I would not recommend people to take a walk on I-35 or the surrounding
areas, the reason being that there is really nothing within walking distance
that is worth walking to. So before you start getting paranoid and wondering
if you need to hire your own bodyguards to move around, relax. It is'nt all
that bad. And as in any large city you just need to use common sense.

Traffic is an issue but I would not necessarily say that it is as bad
especially in the evenings if you want to get to downtown. The traffic after
5 PM is in the opposite direction (heading out of downtown).

Carjacking at least as far as I know in the last 15 years is something that
I have never worried about. I guess I have been driving in a different part
of Dallas than Dean ;)

Public transportation is essentially non-existent and hence do not even
bother trying to find or use it. It actually exists ( http://www.dart.org/)
but given the location of the hotel it is not useful.

-Basavaraj

---

From: Bernard Aboba <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:59:56 -0800 (PST)

> As usual, you've understated how bad it can be....

Yahoo has a somewhat less terrifying review (4.5 stars) :)

http://travel.yahoo.com/p-reviews-359505-prod-hotel-action-read-ratings_and_reviews-i;_ylt=AtZM6trSkF.Hjqqse8f7Ai_iphQB

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:13:17 -0600

>Yahoo has a somewhat less terrifying review (4.5 stars) :)

of the hotel? Sure, it's a great hotel. It's just what's outside the walls 
of the hotel Dean was commenting on... in a Deanesque way

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:24:33 -0600

>From the yahoo website here is a quote below:

"The Anatole's 7-acre park provides a village green for walking or
jogging. The well-tended gardens include a lagoon, croquet lawn, a
children's pool, and an adult lap pool with swimup bar."

Does your warning mean that we should stay out of the park?  What about
after dark?  Are we safe in the pool?

I always walk to church on Sunday morning while at the IETF and it was
quite nice to walk to Norte Dame in Paris.  Should I take a cab in
Dallas?

Can I walk around alone or should I always travel with a group?  

-- Maureen

 Maureen Stillman
Acting Director Systems Architecture
Nokia Enterprise Solutions, SMC

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of ext Bernard Aboba
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:00 PM
To: James M. Polk
Cc: Working Group Chairs
Subject: Re: Logistics Warning for Dallas Meeting

http://travel.yahoo.com/p-reviews-359505-prod-hotel-action-read-ratings_
and_reviews-i;_ylt=AtZM6trSkF.Hjqqse8f7Ai_iphQB

---

From: Andy Bierman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:29:39 -0800

Dean Willis wrote:

thanks for the tip.
Snooping around on Google Earth seems to confirm
that there is little of interest within the immediate vicinity.

Andy

---

From: David Kessens <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:34:59 -0800

Dean,

If you don't like the location, please volunteer for sponsoring a
meeting yourself and you will have everything in your own hands.

David Kessens
---

> by local residents who are used to coping with them.

David Kessens
---

---

From: Bernard Aboba <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:54:26 -0800 (PST)

> meeting yourself and you will have everything in your own hands.

I am not sure that it would make that much difference, actually. 

It seems that wherever we choose to go, there is always a message posted 
prior to the meeting suggesting that hidden dangers await.  We live in a 
dangerous world, after all. 

We met in Korea.  There was discussion about whether a war could break out 
during the meeting.  As I recall, this did not happen. 

We went to Paris.  There was talk about whether a massive heat wave would 
result in widespread illness and possibly death.  Most of us are still 
here. 

Now we are going to Dallas.  So I am not surprised that flak jackets are 
being suggested.  However,  noone has yet brought up November 
22, 1963. :)

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:57:39 -0600

On Jan 24, 2006, at 2:59 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:

> http://travel.yahoo.com/p-reviews-359505-prod-hotel-action-read- 
> ratings_and_reviews-i;_ylt=AtZM6trSkF.Hjqqse8f7Ai_iphQB
>

To restate: The hotel itself is huge and spectactular, with lovely  
gardens and impressive art exhibits. Definitely the local favorite  
for romantic getaways.

It's the area OUTSIDE the hotel that's a challenge.

--
Dean

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:14:08 -0600

> after dark?  Are we safe in the pool?

The enclosed park at the Anatole is quite lovely, somewhat  
reminiscent of the grounds at Versailles. I'd expect that area to be  
quite safe. It has a nice tall fence around it with plenty of  
security cameras. All in all, the  primary facilities of the Anatole  
are excellent. It's like a little Xanadu in the middle of the  
barbarian hinterland.

> quite nice to walk to Norte Dame in Paris.  Should I take a cab in

I'm not aware of any churches within walking distance of the  
Anatole.  There are many nice churches in the Dallas area, but I  
suspect you'll need either a cab or a car to find one from that  
location.

> Can I walk around alone or should I always travel with a group?

In the immediate area of the Anatole, I would definitely recommend  
not walking. If you must walk, groups are definitely in order. And  
probably expedition-grade field survival equipment, because it's  
likely to be a long walk to get anywhere interesting.

There are some very walkable, touristy parts of Dallas. The area  
around the hotel is just not one of them. For ground expeditions, I'd  
suggest the Arts District and the Dallas Museum of Art, the Uptown  
and "McKinney street" area, the Kennedy museum and "Grassy Knoll",   
the Dallas Arboretum and the Dallas Zoo. I THINK most of the New  
Orleans refugees will have been cleared out of the Reunion Arena area  
by the time of the meeting, and Reunion Tower offers a great view of  
the city skyline.

For evening outings, the Uptown/Mkcinney areas are good, Knox/ 
Henderson has some attractions, and both Mid to Lower Greenville and  
Deep Ellum have an assortment of slightly rougher nightclubs,  
restaurants, and bars. Going north by about 5 miles on I-35, we also  
have the new "Restaurant Row" area that has several dozen  
megadineries, a really big theater, and some decent nightclubs and  
music venues.

But keep in mind, this is Texas. Outside of the downtown core and  
some areas in the suburbs, it's criss-crossed by 10-lane megahighways  
that have few or no pedestrian crossings. Yes, you legally have to  
use a motor vehicle to get across the street.

--
Dean

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:24:52 -0600

The location is fine, but people who expect to be able to walk a  
block away and have a lunch meeting or quick dinner meeting need to  
be prepared for the reality of the situation.  It's a very different  
environment from where we found ourselves in Vancouver, or Paris, or  
Minneapolis, or even that forsaken island in San Diego.

The Anatole is actually one of my favorite hotels.

--
Dean

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:26:07 -0600

> being suggested.  However,  noone has yet brought up November

Well, I think I did mention the Kennedy museum and "grassy knoll" as  
things to visit.

--
Dean

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:01:35 -0600

Dean,
I beg to disagree with your description. Traffic around lunch time is no
worst than in many other places. I guess you never actually lived in NY
or California if you describe the traffic being worst here .... Yes, in
the early morning and evening rush hours it can be bad. 

As for safety, I have friends that live nearby and go jogging every
evening, with no body armor nor rifles. By the way, downtown Minneapolis
has a higher crime rate than downtown Dallas ...

I take taxis very often to and from the airport, and they are very cheap
compared to many other towns (including Minneapolis). Just check the
rates online (e.g. about $35 for 25 miles, including airport fee).

Stefano 

>From: [email-masked] 
>[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of ext David Kessens
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 10:35 PM
>To: Dean Willis
>Cc: Working Group Chairs
>If you don't like the location, please volunteer for 
>sponsoring a meeting yourself and you will have everything in 
>your own hands.
>
>David Kessens
>---
>
>> There are are some important things to know about the 
>logistics as you 
>> plan your between-meeting schedules, ad-hocs, bar bofs, and 
>things of 
>> that sort.
>> 
>> gunships and medevac on standby. The little strip along the 
>highway is 
>> only terrifying, but once you get off of that you walk in the Valley 
>> of the Shadow of Death itself. It MIGHT be a little safer than urban 
>> Iraq is right now, but not by much.
>> 
>> and 7:00 PM weekdays. I'd estimate a minimum of twenty 
>minutes transit 
>> time each way for anything you want to go do, and longer if you want 
>> to find a decent place. Imagine the worst traffic you've seen in 
>> Washington DC, New York City, or Highway 101 in California.
>> criminality, unlike any place I'm aware of in Europe 
>(they're probably 
>> there, but tourists don't find them).  The worse news is that the 
>> housing projects are on the other side. While the hotel itself 
>> maintains some security in parking areas, I'd suggest 
>leaving NOTHING 
>> of value in your car. Also, study up on "car jacking" and ways to 
>> avoid it.
>>

---

From: Melinda Shore <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:24:29 -0500

> It's the area OUTSIDE the hotel that's a challenge.

So basically you're suggesting that someone who wants to go out
for a run would be well advised to take advantages of the hotel's
excellent health facility and state-of-the-art treadmills?

Melinda

---

From: Leslie Daigle <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:10:38 -0500

That was our last time in Dallas. IIRC, that hotel was a block
away. :-)

Leslie.

---

From: Andy Bierman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:30:16 -0800

> That was our last time in Dallas. IIRC, that hotel was a block

I don't want to start any US bashing, especially since I'm a US citizen,
but I can't help noticing the dramatic cultural contrast between, say
Paris, France and Dallas, Texas. Or Vancouver and Dallas.

I know this is a coincidence, but it makes me wish that all
North American meetings be in Canada from now on.

I don't really care that much actually.  I never have much time to sight-see
anyway.  I've never had any crime related problem at any IETF I've ever 
been at,
but that isn't relevant to somebody who has.

Andy

>
> Bernard Aboba wrote:
>
>> Now we are going to Dallas.  So I am not surprised that flak jackets 
>> are being suggested.  However,  noone has yet brought up November 22, 
>> 1963. :)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:28:29 -0600

I think "bad places" can be found in every major city, regardless of 
country.  This Hotel is not in the greatest part of town, but there are far 
worse parts of Dallas, if that's any consolation prize.  Alas, there are 
far better places, too.

And, not meaning to pick on any other meeting, but the Paris meeting had a 
string of purse thefts from a fair amount of the restaurants just outside 
the hotel last summer.  I rememer Steve Belovin's wife being a victim. It 
had been a while since I remember anything like that actually happening to 
us, verses just the worries prior to the meeting (like some were - at the 
mic in the plenary - in Vienna about the upcoming Seoul meeting and the 
possibility of War breaking out while we were there  ;-)

At 09:30 AM 1/26/2006 -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
>>>being suggested.  However,  noone has yet brought up November 22, 1963. :)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>

---

From: Lakshminath Dondeti <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:30:06 -0800

Here are some recent experiences from the past meetings I attended or 
know about in the venues mentioned below:

Paris:  A few laptops were stolen at the last IETF. (I will be in 
Paris at the Concorde Lafayette in early Feb for an OMA meeting and 
will be closely guarding my laptop :-) )
Vancouver:  A few weeks ago 3GPP2 had a meeting there, and a 
colleague's car was broken into and his laptop was stolen.
Dallas: So far no laptops were stolen (that I know of :-)).  I was at 
an IEEE meeting a few years ago, and visited and have driven around 
in Dallas several times.

Not sure how Canada wins out on the US in all of this?

regards,
Lakshminath

PS: I am from India, and when and if the IETF meets in any city in 
India, I'd advise people to be more careful than ever: you might be 
cheated by a taxi driver, your laptop wallet or purse may be 
stolen.  On the upside, food will be great, at least Vegetarians will 
have no problem.  We can also count on pretty nice weather.

regards,
Lakshminath

At 09:30 AM 1/26/2006, Andy Bierman wrote:
>anyway.  I've never had any crime related problem at any IETF I've 
>ever been at,
>>>Now we are going to Dallas.  So I am not surprised that flak 
>>>jackets are being suggested.  However,  noone has yet brought up 
>>>November 22, 1963. :)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

---

From: "Steven M. Bellovin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:31:26 -0500

In message <[email-masked]>, "James M. Polk"
>possibility of War breaking out while we were there  ;-)

Or San Francisco, where war actually did break out while we were 
there...

		--Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:38:29 -0600

>Or San Francisco, where war actually did break out while we were

hehe

yeah.... those marchers..... they were loud! I was on the 14th floor, with 
earplugs, and I still had a hard time falling asleep

I know several folks who missed their flights because they were caught up 
in the traffic jam attempting to cross the marchers while taxiing back to 
the airport that Friday

---

From: Acee Lindem <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:44:16 -0500

James M. Polk wrote:

> yeah.... those marchers..... they were loud! I was on the 14th floor, 
> with earplugs, and I still had a hard time falling asleep
>
> I know several folks who missed their flights because they were caught 
> up in the traffic jam attempting to cross the marchers while taxiing 
> back to the airport that Friday

I was in Paris once when the garbage collectors were on strike - that 
was much worse than
the protesters in SF. Our shuttle driver just took a different route.

Acee

---

From: Pete Resnick <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:35:32 -0800

On 1/26/06 at 10:30 AM -0800, Lakshminath Dondeti wrote:

>cheated by a taxi driver...

They might charge you 100Rp instead of 50Rp (US$2 vs. US$1)? ;-)

Not that I care about the extra $1, but even I was able to 
successfully negotiate with cabbies over the 50Rp, and I don't speak 
any Hindi.

pr
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

---

From: Andrew Newton <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:59:26 -0500

On Jan 26, 2006, at 1:28 PM, James M. Polk wrote:

> And, not meaning to pick on any other meeting, but the Paris  
> meeting had a string of purse thefts from a fair amount of the  
> restaurants just outside the hotel last summer.

The Parisian pick pockets do take it to a new level: I know one  
IETF'er who had a small hand bag lifted from the inside seat on an  
inside table at one of the nicer restaurants in the convention  
center.  That being said, I would rather have petty property crimes  
over violent crimes any day.

> North American meetings be in Canada from now on.

Well, Vancouver anyway.  I don't know if there is much of a  
difference between Dallas and Toronto other than accent and 10º.

-andy

---

From: Andy Bierman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:43:31 -0800

Andrew Newton wrote:

>> And, not meaning to pick on any other meeting, but the Paris meeting 
>> had a string of purse thefts from a fair amount of the restaurants 
>> just outside the hotel last summer.
>>
>
> Well, Vancouver anyway.  I don't know if there is much of a difference 
> between Dallas and Toronto other than accent and 10º.
>

I was not making a political statement or even
commenting on the crime worries actually.
Given a choice, I would rather visit Canada than US right now.

Andy

---

From: "Olaf M. Kolkman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:17:57 +0100

>> war actually did break out
>
On Jan 26, 2006, at 19:38 , James M. Polk wrote:
>  I still had a hard time falling asleep

No further comments.

--Olaf

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:52:58 -0600

hehe

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 00:58:53 -0600

> the early morning and evening rush hours it can be bad.

Yeah, actually, I have worked in NY, and DC, and San Jose, and a few  
other places. I'm glad you get better luck with Dallas traffic than I  
do, but I regularly spend two hours getting across town. For five  
years I did an IT consulting job here, with job assignments all over  
Metroplex, and Dallas traffic can really get ugly. Despite living in  
the area, I'm planning to stay at the Anatole for the meeting,  
because face it -- an IETF meeting doesn't leave several hours in the  
day for commuting.

> has a higher crime rate than downtown Dallas ...

You have friends that live near the Anatole? Or near downtown Dallas,  
which is about 10 miles away? Downtown Dallas is reasonably safe. The  
West Dallas projects and Harry Hines are not. It's all a matter of  
knowing where is OK, and folks from out of town aren't likely to  
know. It''s not like they put up skull-and-crossbones signs.

> rates online (e.g. about $35 for 25 miles, including airport fee).

Funny. It costs me over $60 to get home from the airport by cab, and  
short-hop rates around downtown run about $15. Perhaps not horrible,  
but considerably more than popping around Paris by metro.

Incidentally, SuperShuttle offers a decent shared-an service from the  
DFW airport that's only $35 to my house. I recommend them. Some of  
the other shared van operators at D/FW have been less reliable for me.

--
Dean

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:00:48 -0600

> excellent health facility and state-of-the-art treadmills?

That would be my suggestion. Of course, if you need incentive to run  
REALLY quickly . . .

During the daytime, you'd probably be OK, but there is a bit of  
vehicular traffic.

There are also some nice areas not too far away, you just have to  
drive there.

--
Dean