Subject: RE: Logistics Warning for Dallas Meeting

From: "Burger, Eric" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:06:42 -0500

Having lived in Dallas 25 years ago, I can attest the hotel itself is
GREAT.  That said, I would never, ever walk around the hotel.  I was
going to say "neighborhood," but once you go there, you will see there
is no neighborhood in that area.

Decent food is literally miles away downtown or across the city in
Grenville.

Please do not confuse Dallas with a nice, compact European or New
England city.  The city limits of Dallas are 35 MILES by 45 MILES
across.  By Dallas standards, we are "close" to downtown (which, by the
way, closes around 6pm).  That means it's only an hour drive at dinner
time.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Dean Willis
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 3:15 PM
To: Working Group Chairs
Subject: Logistics Warning for Dallas Meeting

I just noticed that the Dallas IETF will be at the Anatole hotel.  
It's a very nice hotel, in general, BUT . . .

I've lived in the Dallas area for most of the last twenty years, and  
have had the dubious honor of attending many events at that hotel.  
There are are some important things to know about the logistics as  
you plan your between-meeting schedules, ad-hocs, bar bofs, and  
things of that sort.

Cars are MANDATORY, but almost useless, due to traffic issues.

First off, the hotel is in the middle of Hell. It's on Interstate 35,  
surrounded by a no-mans land territory in which I would be unwilling  
to walk while wearing body armor and carrying an automatic rifle  
without an entire platoon of people similarly equipped and helicopter  
gunships and medevac on standby. The little strip along the highway  
is only terrifying, but once you get off of that you walk in the  
Valley of the Shadow of Death itself. It MIGHT be a little safer than  
urban Iraq is right now, but not by much.

Second, there is very little in the way of restaurants or  
entertainment within walking distance (like, absolutely nothing I'm  
aware of) anyhow.

There are a number of dining facilities in the hotel, but they will  
not be adequate to the number of people we're bringing. This means  
that many of us will be going off-campus (in cars) for meals.  The  
traffic in this area is HORRIBLE around peak hours -- between 7:00 AM  
and 7:00 PM weekdays. I'd estimate a minimum of twenty minutes  
transit time each way for anything you want to go do, and longer if  
you want to find a decent place. Imagine the worst traffic you've  
seen in Washington DC, New York City, or Highway 101 in California.  
Then imagine it worse, if you can. That's a good day in Dallas, and  
some days get very bad indeed.

The good news (hah!) is you're only a few blocks from Dallas' most  
notorious (but recently somewhat cleaned up) red-light district. The  
bad news is that this is a very scary place with high levels of  
criminality, unlike any place I'm aware of in Europe (they're  
probably there, but tourists don't find them).  The worse news is  
that the housing projects are on the other side. While the hotel  
itself maintains some security in parking areas, I'd suggest leaving  
NOTHING of value in your car. Also, study up on "car jacking" and  
ways to avoid it.

Dallas cabs are very expensive, and almost impossible to hail if you  
get away from the hotels. Keep a list of cab company phone numbers  
with you if you're going to rely on taxis. The good news is that the  
taxis themselves are fairly well-regulated and unlikely to completely  
abuse you.

Avoid reliance on public mass transportation in this area at all  
costs. The area is not served by trains, and the buses are used only  
by local residents who are used to coping with them.

--
Dean

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:13:47 -0800

given that the current penchant seems to be for assuming that  
restaurants throughout the world open at 8:00 and close sometime  
after midnight, do you have any recommendations for people that seek  
munchies in the evening?

On Jan 24, 2006, at 2:06 PM, Burger, Eric wrote:

> By Dallas standards, we are "close" to downtown (which, by the way,  
> closes around 6pm).  That means it's only an hour drive at dinner  
> time.

---

From: Basavaraj Patil <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:26:45 -0600

Most restaurants in the Dallas area are open until at least 10 PM.
Many of the restaurants on McKinney Avenue in downtown, West end (downtown),
and in Addison (North Dallas) are open even later than that.

Downtown is about 10 minutes from the Wyndham (maybe 20 in bad traffic). And
the N. Dallas area which has plenty of restaurants is at the most 15 to 30
minutes as well. Of course the time is driving time.

I don't think that any IETFers who seek evening munchies would find a
shortage of places.... As long as they have a car or take a taxi.

---

From: Lakshminath Dondeti <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:26:51 -0800

The hilton points to some nearby (~1.5 miles and above) restaurants. 
(Scroll down to the bottom of 
http://www.hilton.com/en/hi/hotels/dining.jhtml?ctyhocn=DFWANHH and 
hit the search button)

Almost all of the restaurants listed as within 1-2 miles to the hotel 
close at 10:00 pm, if not later.  A couple of them close at 9:30.

HTH.

Lakshminath

PS: I support the new schedule wholeheartedly, and think that it 
works well with hotels like the Hilton Anatole, away from restaurants.

---

From: Chris Lonvick <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:26:55 -0800 (PST)

Hi Fred,

Get on I-35 southbound and pretty soon (by Texas standards) you'll come to 
Austin.  We'll keep the light on.  :)

Later,
Chris

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Fred Baker wrote:

> given that the current penchant seems to be for assuming that restaurants 
> throughout the world open at 8:00 and close sometime after midnight, do you 
> have any recommendations for people that seek munchies in the evening?
>
>> By Dallas standards, we are "close" to downtown (which, by the way, closes 
>> around 6pm).  That means it's only an hour drive at dinner time.
>

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:24:50 -0600

Another interesting fact about the Dallas/Fort Worth area is that it is the 
number 1 "we eat out/not in" capital of the US (at least). Meaning, more 
residential folks eat out as a percentage of those who can, than any other 
metro area here.  Meaning, restaurants are very busy all of the time, at 
least until 9pm, which as it turns out, is not far off our schedule.  I've 
found, having lived here for 10 years, that finding a place to eat is easy. 
Finding a seat to sit in isn't *unless* I wanted to eat late by local 
standards, meaning after 9pm.

Another interesting facet of this area is that most places do not take 
reservations, it's FCFS

---

From: David Kessens <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:26:46 -0800

[ changed subject line ]

Fred,

> after midnight, do you have any recommendations for people that seek  

I just acquired a Zagat's guide for 'America's top restaurants 2006'.
There are about 40 restaurants listed with ratings 24 and up (twice as
many as Minneapolis).

Considering this, I am not too concerned that you will have a problem
finding decent food (I am more worried that you will find more food
than you really want to eat ;-)).

As for transportation, despite this being Texas, it is probably easier
and more economical to take taxis instead of renting a car (also, the
rental car facility on the airport is pretty remote). In addition, the
hotel actually has a rental car service on site so you can also choose
to rent a car for just a day if you plan on traveling a bit further.

David Kessens
---

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:20:41 -0600

On Jan 24, 2006, at 4:13 PM, Fred Baker wrote:

> after midnight, do you have any recommendations for people that  
> seek munchies in the evening?
>
>> By Dallas standards, we are "close" to downtown (which, by the  
>> way, closes around 6pm).  That means it's only an hour drive at  
>> dinner time.
>

That's the best news. If you're willing to use motorized transport to  
get there, Dallas features a practically limitless variety of both  
local and chain restaurants, eateries, bars, delis, and stuff like  
that. They tend to be far less restrictive on operating hours than  
many cities, although some will close earlier than we might be  
accustomed to in Europe.

The Restaurant Row area a few miles north on I-35 includes, among  
other things, Pappas family steak, seafood, TexMex, and Cajun  
restaurants, as well as bunches of other stuff.

Greenville Avenue and Mckinney street also have large restaurant  
concentrations, but are perhaps 15 to 30 minutes away by car under  
off-peak traffic conditions.

--
Dean

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 05:54:30 -0600

David,
well said. As Dallas resident for 8 years, I can guarantee you can find
very good food in Dallas, and pretty much any type of cuisine you
desire. One warning, though: remember that here everything is at least
10 miles away ... and that Dallas has the highest concentration of
restaurant per resident of the whole North America. You can find good
restaurants open till late, but on a weekday I would assume they may
close around 10PM.

Taxis in Dallas are rather cheap. So is food.

If needed, I believe myself and other Dallas residents can provide a
list of good restaurants in the area of the Hilton Anatole, from the
cheap "hole in the wall" run by grandma whose food makes you think of
times gone by, to the most modern and refined restaurant you can find
even in more fashionable cities. 

Stefano 

>From: [email-masked] 
>[mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of ext David Kessens
>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 10:27 PM
>To: Fred Baker
>Cc: Working Group Chairs
>Subject: Re: Food in Dallas
>
>
>[ changed subject line ]
>
>Fred,
>
>> restaurants throughout the world open at 8:00 and close 
>sometime after 
>> midnight, do you have any recommendations for people that seek 
>> munchies in the evening?
>
>There are about 40 restaurants listed with ratings 24 and up 
>(twice as many as Minneapolis).
>
>Considering this, I am not too concerned that you will have a 
>problem finding decent food (I am more worried that you will 
>find more food than you really want to eat ;-)).
>
>As for transportation, despite this being Texas, it is 
>probably easier and more economical to take taxis instead of 
>renting a car (also, the rental car facility on the airport is 
>pretty remote). In addition, the hotel actually has a rental 
>car service on site so you can also choose to rent a car for 
>just a day if you plan on traveling a bit further.
>
>David Kessens
>---
>
>