Subject: WG Chair Training Lunch

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 17:20:47 -0400

Hi All,

As usual, we will be having a WG Chairs Training Lunch in Montreal  
during the Wednesday lunch slot.  All current WG chairs, BOF chairs  
and IESG members are encouraged to attend. A complementary lunch will  
be provided.  Please RSVP to [email-masked] no by Friday, July 7th  
if you would like to attend.

The topic for this session will be WG Decision Making.  We will be  
sharing our ideas and experiences about leading WGs through difficult  
decisions.  There may also be an opportunity to get some advice on  
specific, ongoing situations.  Hopefully this session will give us  
more opportunity for WG/BOF chair participation and interaction than  
the last couple of sessions.

Wednesday, July 11, 2006
1130-1300, Location TBD
=====================

Presentation:  Tools for WG Decision Making (TBD)

Round Table:   How to Lead a WG Through Tough Decisions
Panelists:  TBD (from volunteers, see below)

VOLUNTEERS NEEDED!  Based on a suggestion from a member of this list,  
I'm making an open call for volunteers who might like to help lead  
the round-table discussion.  Please send me a brief description of  
how you have handled a complex or difficult decision-making process  
in one of your WGs.  I'll choose a few panelists from among the  
volunteers to help get the conversations started.

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:03:59 -0500

Margaret & all

I seem to lack a destination for this gathering.  The last I have is TBD as 
to where we are meeting for this lunch.

Does anyone know where this is taking place?

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:19:00 +0200

James,

If you RSVPed, you should have received a confirmation with the room number.
I got mine late last week. There is a head count for the lunches.

    Brian

James M. Polk wrote:
> Margaret & all
> 
> I seem to lack a destination for this gathering.  The last I have is TBD 
> as to where we are meeting for this lunch.
>

---

From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:31:21 -0400

No, didn't worked for me either ... It may be because the room seems
overbooked or has this already sorted out ?

Regards,
Jordi

> De: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
> Organización: IBM
> Responder a: <[email-masked]>
> Fecha: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:19:00 +0200
> Para: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
> CC: <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>,
> <[email-masked]>
> Asunto: [edu-team] Re: WG Chair Training Lunch
> 
> James,
> 
> _______________________________________________
> edu-team mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-team

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---

From: David Harrington <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:32:39 -0400

I replied on 7/8 12:16 to Maregert's reminder that it was the last day
to RSVP.
I do not see any sign in my inbox of a reply tellng me the room.
 
David Harrington
[email-masked] 
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 10:19 AM
> To: James M. Polk
> Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: WG Chair Training Lunch
> 
> James,
>

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:49:58 -0400

Hi All,

Everyone who RSVPed by July 7th should already have received a  
confirmation that contained a room number.  If you did RSVP by the  
7th and haven't received a message, please write to me, and I'll send  
you the room number.

If you RSVPed late, please be patient.  Marcia was still trying to  
arrange a few additional spots late yesterday, and she is replying to  
the last minute folks this morning.

If you did not RSVP and you are not a speaker, please do not show  
up.  I don't mean to be harsh, but we are already overbooked with  
people who did RSVP.  If you did not RSVP and you feel that you  
absolutely need to show up, please wait until everyone who has RSVPed  
has a lunch and a chair before assuming that there will be extras of  
either one.

Thanks,
Margaret

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:40:32 -0400

I got a trouble ticket like response from

[email-masked]

which had the room number on it.

Regards
Marshall

On Jul 12, 2006, at 10:31 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:

> This electronic message contains information which may be  
> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for  
> the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the  
> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,  
> distribution or use of the contents of this information, including  
> attached files, is prohibited.
>
>
>
>

---

From: Gonzalo Camarillo <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:26:51 +0300

Hi,

in the chair's lunch today, Brian said at some point that if a chair
decides to close down a design team, it is OK for the members to
continue discussing about the topic they were working on, but they
cannot be called an IETF design team anymore.

Given that the results of any design team have to be run thru the
official WG mailing list anyway, like any other input received by the WG
from any individual, what is the difference between an "official" design
team and a bunch of people working on the same topic that feed their
results into the WG?

Thanks,

Gonzalo

---

From: Hannes Tschofenig <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:39:10 -0400

Hi Gonzalo,

the chairs are able to guide the discussions in a design team.
With a private group the chairs are able todo absolutely nothing.

Furthermore, working groups tend to treat the outcome of a design team 
differently to the outcome of a private group.

Ciao
Hannes

---

From: Gonzalo Camarillo <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:41:38 +0300

Hi,

> differently to the outcome of a private group.

I know that it tends to be treated differently. But... should it really 
be treated differently according to our processes?

Gonzalo

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:42:06 -0400

> team and a bunch of people working on the same topic that feed their

there are any number of groups that develop something in a vacuum,  
bring it to the IETF, and want the IETF to rubber stamp it. They are  
routinely shocked and amazed by the reception they get.

"chilly" might be an accurate description.

---

From: [email-masked] (Scott Bradner)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:42:28 -0400 (EDT)

see section 6.5 of RFC 2418 - there is no difference

Scott
----
>From [email-masked]  Wed Jul 12 14:34:45 2006
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:26:51 +0300
From: Gonzalo Camarillo <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Cc: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>, [email-masked],
	Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Design teams WAS (Re: [edu-team] Re: WG Chair Training Lunch)

Hi,

Thanks,

Gonzalo

---

From: "Ong, Lyndon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:42:20 -0400

Also, you can pick the members of a design team as opposed to
having them pick each other.  Sometimes this may help to get
people to reach a common solution (although not always).

Cheers,

Lyndon 

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 11:39 AM
To: Gonzalo Camarillo
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]; Brian E
Carpenter
Subject: Re: Design teams WAS (Re: [edu-team] Re: WG Chair Training
Lunch)

Hi Gonzalo,

Ciao
Hannes

Gonzalo Camarillo wrote:
> official WG mailing list anyway, like any other input received by the 
> WG from any individual, what is the difference between an "official" 
> design team and a bunch of people working on the same topic that feed 
> their results into the WG?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gonzalo
> 
>

---

From: Hannes Tschofenig <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 14:51:53 -0400

> be treated differently according to our processes?
 From a theoretical process point you might be right.

Another thing:

The design team discussions are made public whereas the discussions of a 
private group aren't.

Ciao
Hannes

---

From: "Randy Presuhn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:53:17 -0700

Hi -

> From: "Gonzalo Camarillo" <[email-masked]>
> To: "Hannes Tschofenig" <[email-masked]>
> Cc: <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>; "Brian E Carpenter" <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 11:41 AM
> Subject: Re: Design teams WAS (Re: [edu-team] Re: WG Chair Training Lunch)
...
> be treated differently according to our processes?
...

It should not.

Randy

---

From: Avri Doria <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:53:17 -0400

Hi,

This thread is interesting.  and i would like to see the discussion  
continue in an educational context

But as list manager of the edu team list i wanted to point out that  
the team list is a closed list, which means i need to process each of  
the message individually to send them on to the list as they come  
from unsubscribed addresses.

There is, however, a edu discuss list that has not been used much. i  
invite any of you who would like to discuss educational offerings and  
the content of this or any other class, or of the edu program as a  
whole to join that list and discuss.

info: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-discuss

since the edu effort has an effect, we hope, on wgs, it is good if  
you all contribute to a public discussion.

thanks
a.

---

From: "Eastlake III Donald-LDE008" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:27:41 -0400

This corresponds to my understanding.

The working group chair can set up zero or more design teams and subsets
of those active in the working group can organize themselves into zero
or more design teams. (According to RFC 2418 they can also be set up by
the AD which I had forgotten.) These groups can be of open or closed
memberships. They can have mailing lists which are closed or openly
readable but restricted posting or completely open (or wikis or whatever
else they want.)

The outputs of all design teams are, in some legalistic sense, equal.
But, of course, the WG will judge them based on their technical quality,
timeliness, their confidence in the people on the design team, etc., and
whether the team was established and monitored by the WG chair / AD can
certainly be a factor.

So a chair can set up a design team and control its membership, etc. And
this can be an excellent way to make progress. But if a subgroup of the
WG feels this is an attempt to bypass the working group process and
railroad something through, or just think that the chair's design team
is dedicated to the wrong technical direction when there hasn't already
been a WG consensus to go that way, they are entitled to get together
and call themselves a design team and present their output to the
working group on roughly the same basis as the working group chair's
design team.

Donald

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Bradner [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:42 PM
To: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Design teams WAS (Re: [edu-team] Re: WG Chair Training
Lunch)

Scott
----
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 21:26:51 +0300
From: Gonzalo Camarillo <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
References: <[email-masked]>
	<[email-masked]>
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>, [email-masked],
	Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Design teams WAS (Re: [edu-team] Re: WG Chair Training Lunch)

Hi,

Thanks,

Gonzalo

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 16:33:26 +0200

Donald, just two comments in line...

Eastlake III Donald-LDE008 wrote:
> and call themselves a design team

But they can't call themselves a design team *of the foobar WG* unless the
chair agrees.

> and present their output to the

Right. And there are precedents for a WG preferring the results of the
self-appointed DT to those of the official DT.

     Brian