Subject: Re: IETF 72 --> Dublin!

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:17:46 -0500

As a result of incorrect data on the Citywest Hotel website there have 
been some questions asked.  Here is the correct information based upon 
the contract with the hotel.

Ray Pelletier
IETF Administrative Director

Citywest Contract with IETF  http://www.citywesthotel.com/site/index.aspx

1. Room Rates - Single: 130 EUR: Double: 160 EUR; Breakfast, Internet 
and taxes are included

2. Guest substitution permitted

3. Promotion Code: IETF

4. Guest Cancellation
Individuals can cancel the reservation without penalty until 3 days 
prior to check-in / arrival. In case of cancellation less than 3 days 
prior to the event or non-arrival or no-show, the Hotel holds the right 
to charge the individuals one nights stay as cancellation fees.

5. Check In - Check Out.  Hotel check-in is 15:00 hrs. Check-out is to 
be completed by 11:00 AM however Hotel shall reasonably accommodate 
early arrivals and late departures of the international attendees based 
on availability.

6. Non-smoking Rooms.  The Hotel's guestroom should be at least 95% 
non-smoking in inventory.

7. Renovation.  As of the date of the signing of this contract, Hotel 
has no plans for renovation and remodeling.

8. Difficulties with reservations can be addressed to Melissa at 
[email-masked]

Ray Pelletier wrote:

> The IAOC is pleased to announce Dublin as the site for IETF 72 from 27 
> July to 1 Aug 2008. This will be the first time the IETF has held its 
> meeting in Ireland.
>
> The venue will be the beautiful Citywest Hotel, "Ireland’s premier 
> Conference, Leisure & Golf Resort and one of Europe’s most popular 
> International Conference destinations. The four star Citywest Hotel is 
> only 20km from Dublin airport and 15km from Dublin City Centre." 
> http://www.citywesthotel.com/site/index.aspx
>
> "Citywest is the complete corporate and leisure resort offering superb 
> facilities for conference and leisure visitors including: 4,000 
> capacity conference centre, 1,314 hotel rooms, suites and 
> self-contained suites, lively bars and restaurants, a state of the art 
> leisure centre and two superb Christy O’Connor Jnr designed golf 
> courses. "
>
> Rooms are 130 EUR which includes breakfast and Internet access. Only 
> 1,000 rooms have been reserved on the peak nights. Don't get shut out! 
> This will likely be the best attended meeting of 2008, and many will 
> arrive early or stay late to take advantage of all that Dublin has to 
> offer. http://www.visitdublin.com/ Be sure to mention IETF when you 
> book your reservation.
>
> Only 5 weeks until IETF 71 in Philadelphia - a good time to register [ 
> http://www3.ietf.org/meetings/71-IETF.html ] and join our host, 
> Comcast, at the social at the beautiful Philadelphia Museum of Art 
> [http://ietf71.comcast.net/?page_id=12 ].
>
> See you in Philly and Dublin!
>
> Ray Pelletier
> IETF Administrative Director
>
>
>

---

From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:53:16 +0100

Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
> I sometimes wonder how cheap and convenient IETF meetings would be if  
> the fee reflected just the meeting costs, the hotel room fees wouldn't  
> be used to subsidize the venue price and venue selection only  
> considered price and convenience for the IETF goers and not a host.
>   

Those aren't the only criteria.  Try finding a place in Europe that can 
fit our plenary and ALSO house the number of WG meetings we have.  That 
ain't easy.

I've said this privately and I guess I'll say it publicly.  I'm no fan 
of CityWest.  But...

It's Ray's job to make the call.  It's the IAOC's job to see that he 
does his job well.  I think Ray has at least earned the benefit of the 
doubt.  Perhaps this is best viewed retrospectively since contracts are 
signed?

Eliot

---

From: Eliot Lear <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:55:36 +0100

I wrote:
> doubt.  Perhaps this is best viewed retrospectively since contracts 
> are signed?

I am told the following by someone who should know:

> Actually, Ray really does NOT make these decisions in the absence of 
> much debate and analysis within the IAOC and its various committees.

Eliot

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:53:27 -0800

On Feb 6, 2008, at 9:15 AM, Andy Bierman wrote:

> However, there are obvious logistical concerns, especially at lunch  
> time. Is 90 minutes really enough time to bus into town, eat lunch,  
> and get back?

Lunch is always a problem. That's why we have a sandwich stand - to  
diminish exactly this concern.

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 11:18:38 -0500

All;
So, let me provide a little more background for the IAOC decision to 
hold IETF 72 in Dublin.

There were 3 venues under consideration - Geneva, Paris and Dublin. 

Each of these Cities had venues with available dates.  After 
pre-qualifying each, a meeting and tech qualification team visitied the 
Geneva and Dublin venues. An IETF meeting had previously been held at 
the Paris facility.

For the Geneva convention center under consideration, the hotel blocks 
were small and only one was within walking distance.  We would have 
needed to contract with approximately 10 hotels in order to meet minimum 
requirements of hotel block. Hotels were spread out, some in the city, 
while others (the larger hotels) were close to the airport.  Guest room 
rates were the most expensive of the three options.  Very likely that 
the meeting space costs could have been covered, but not the network 
infrastructure. No Host.

The Paris facility quoted the most expensive meeting space costs at over 
$200,000, as well as the most expensive food and beverage costs and 
second most expensive guest room rates.  Network infrastructure costs 
not covered. No Host.

The Dublin facility has a Host to cover meeting space costs, the Welcome 
Reception, as well as providing the network infrastructure for the 
meeting at its expense.  The Citywest HQ hotel has a large room block 
(1,000 on a peak night) and the best room rates of the three, as well as 
qualified meeting space and "from the technical perspective, City West 
is the recommended site" (input from the tech visit).  Biggest con - 20 
km from the city, which we will try to ameliorate by providing shuttle 
buses to the Temple Bar area of Dublin Monday through Thursday.

Dublin was recommended by the Meetings Subcommittee and selected by the 
IAOC.  It provides a good meeting facility and guest rooms under one 
roof, with a Host, and the least financial risk to the organizations.

If you want to see Dublin, and I recommend it, consider arriving 2 - 3 
days early, or staying after the meeting at a hotel downtown near 
Grafton Street and Trinity College.  The college even has dorm rooms 
available at very reasonable rates, if you don't mind roughing it a bit..

This meeting will have the highest attendance of the year. Many hotel 
reservations have already been made.  It's not too late to make yours.  
http://www.citywesthotel.com/

Ray Pelletier

Eliot Lear wrote:

>_______________________________________________
>Ietf mailing list
>[email-masked]
>http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
>
>
>  
>

---

From: "Wojciech Dec (wdec)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:46:21 +0100

Hi Ray,
 
I don't want to prolong this thread much more, but the booking terms &
conditions at the City West are unusually strict, if not incorrect (note
the reference to the groups/conferences).
Here's what I get when using the IETF booking code:
 
---snip---
Please note the following terms & conditions relate to this booking. 
 
* Bookings are non refundable and non transferable.
* Cancellations will not be accepted for online bookings
* Check in time : after 1400 hrs 
* Check out time : before 1200 hrs 
* Rates are per room per night. 
* Rates are for accommodation only unless otherwise stated. 
* These rates are not available for groups or conferences. 
* Rates are non commissionable.
* Management reserve the right to assign guests to rooms in either the
Citywest Main or Golf Hotels depending on availability
* For single adult reservations the Management reserve the right to
provide guests with a single room instead of double room only in the
unlikely event of all double rooms being occupied
---snip---
 
Can you confirm that indeed these are the terms we'll have to agree to
(the non refundable, non cancellable condition is particularly
annoying).
 
Thanks,
Woj.

---

From: Ray Pelletier <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:01:36 -0500

The Citywest Contract with IETF provides;

4. Guest Cancellation

Ray

Wojciech Dec (wdec) wrote:

> conditions at the City West are unusually strict, if not incorrect 
> (note the reference to the groups/conferences).
> . Bookings are non refundable and non transferable.
> . Cancellations will not be accepted for online bookings
> . Check in time : after 1400 hrs
> . Check out time : before 1200 hrs
> . Rates are per room per night.
> . Rates are for accommodation only unless otherwise stated.
> . These rates are not available for groups or conferences.
> . Rates are non commissionable.
> . Management reserve the right to assign guests to rooms in either the 
> . For single adult reservations the Management reserve the right to 
> (the non refundable, non cancellable condition is particularly annoying).
>  
> Thanks,
> Woj.
>

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 12:06:44 -0800

> Is there an unwritten requirement that IETFs are placed to afford  
> us sightseeing?

Maybe we should add a pointer to the local "things to see and do in  
Ireland" page to the Meetings page.

As an engineer, I would very much encourage people to stay an extra  
day and tour NewGrange. Imagine the engineering challenge. One day,  
some guy walks into a valley with a few rolling hills in it:

     http://picasaweb.google.com/FredBakerSBA/ 
SaintPatrickSDayInIreland/photo#5141698100648551458

He decides that there just really needs to be a passage tomb in which  
light shines on the magic spot for 17 minutes on the winter equinox  
and maybe the day before and after. He then proceeds to build a hill,  
by mounding rocks in corbel construction (which is one way that  
cathedral builders build arches, the other common one being keystone  
construction), covering it with dirt, and decorating it with other  
rocks brought from a site 80 km away.

     http://picasaweb.google.com/FredBakerSBA/ 
SaintPatrickSDayInIreland/photo#5141698147893191794

So, no problem. there is no such thing as an engineering drawing. But  
he explains to his son (who 20 years later explains to his son, who  
20 years later explains to his son, who 20 years later explains to  
his son, who 20 years later explains to his son) what he wants built,  
and ends with the punchline "when all is said and done, the light  
stops here". The community walks 80 km to get rocks, carries baskets  
of dirt, and even picks up small things like the notion of putting  
gravel between the layers of rock to prevent them from grinding each  
other to sand. The result of his effort is a passage tomb that  
survives to this day, 5000 years later.

I think the engineering is fascinating...

More pictures at

     http://picasaweb.google.com/FredBakerSBA/SaintPatrickSDayInIreland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange
http://www.dublinbus.ie/sightseeing/index.aspx
http://www.irelandby.com/sightseeing/sightseeing_dublin.htm

---

From: Joel Jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:50:21 -0800

Dan Harkins wrote:
>   Please. A ghetto is a homogeneous region for some sort of homogeneity.
> That could be ethnic but "ghetto" is not necessarily some slur against
> poor people or people of some ethnic background. In this case the ghetto
> is going to be golfers, most likely affluent ones, in their plus-fours
> and some plaid nightmare of an outfit.
> 
>   We've already lost the word "niggardly" and the phrase "chocolate
> soldier", neither of which have ethnic or racial connotation, to
> political correctness. 

If you happen to be norwegian and disinclined to pay the frost giants 
for their efforts on your construction project, they may apply it as a 
label. It does have an ethnic connotation, just not the one that's 
generally supposed... :/

> Let's not toss out "ghetto" too.
> 
>   Dan.
> 
> 
>