Subject: Combining consensus calls?

From: Bernard Aboba <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 14:27:32 -0700

I am curious about how various WGs have evaluated consensus calls conducted both at a meeting as well as on the mailing list. 

a. What is the rough percentage required to demonstrate consensus? 
b. How are the votes combined from the meeting and mailing list?

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From: "Eastlake III Donald-LDE008" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 23:59:42 -0400

It is quite common in the TRILL WG for their to be a tentative consensus
at a meeting which is then explicitly tested by a query by the Chair to
the mailing list.
 
See below @@@

________________________________

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Bernard Aboba
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:28 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Combining consensus calls?

I am curious about how various WGs have evaluated consensus calls
conducted both at a meeting as well as on the mailing list. 

@@@ Although some people have claimed there is such a percentage, I
don't think there is. It depends on many factors including how important
the decision is, how urgent the  decision is, and how long and
extensively it has been discussed. Perhaps you could claim there was
some percentage "all other things being equal" but they never are.
That's why its determined by the Chair's judgment rather than a formula.

 @@@ Short answer: by the judgment of the chair. Longer answer: as
usual, in most cases, it isn't a problem. A unanimous decision at a
meeting backed up by no objections or unanimous support on the mailing
list is pretty obvious. Other things being equal, the mailing list is
more important but an overwhelming consensus after extensive discussion
at a well attended meeting is enough to overcome a few pot shots on the
other side on the mailing list. On the other hand, if there is very
little discussion at a meeting and lots of people sitting there silently
while a few people advocate a point, then when a message is sent out on
the mailing list to test the consensus there is a much more extensive
discussion, the mailing list controls and you should probably give
little weight to the silent "consent" at the meeting.
 
@@@ Thanks,
@@@ Donald
 
@@@ PS: This is discussed in Section 3.3 of RFC 2418.

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From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:19:59 -0500

> b. How are the votes combined from the meeting and mailing list?

SIP does this frequently.

The most common case is that we record a consensus, which is usually  
unanimous (or at least has none opposed) or has only one or two  
opposed, during a meeting.

We then announce this consensus on the mailing list, and ask for  
anyone with a conflicting opinion to discuss it. Occasionally someone  
does, and occasionally this changes the consensus.

We sometimes go the other way, and report during a meeting a consensus  
that was observed on the mailing list. Again, this will usually be a  
result of a poll that sees few opposed. The meeting will then be asked  
if there is anyone opposed to the consensus reported from the mailing  
list. If there is, we talk it out, and sometimes this changes the  
consensus (possibly requiring a trip back to the mailing list).

Most WG consensus positions will have roughly 20 people actively  
supporting the position, 1 opposed, and about 1,000 who don't seem to  
care. I think we have a high spectator count.

--
Dean

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From: Lisa Dusseault <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:08:12 -0700

I wrote a draft on IETF consensus,

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dusseault-consensus-00

Part of the reason for writing that draft was to go into more detail  
(and present my view) of why we confirm the consensus from a meeting  
on a mailing list, and how to do so.

Not sure if that helps!
Lisa

On Mar 31, 2008, at 3:19 AM, Dean Willis wrote:

> anyone with a conflicting opinion to discuss it. Occasionally  
> someone does, and occasionally this changes the consensus.
>
> We sometimes go the other way, and report during a meeting a  
> consensus that was observed on the mailing list. Again, this will  
> usually be a result of a poll that sees few opposed. The meeting  
> will then be asked if there is anyone opposed to the consensus  
> reported from the mailing list. If there is, we talk it out, and  
> sometimes this changes the consensus (possibly requiring a trip back  
> to the mailing list).
>
> supporting the position, 1 opposed, and about 1,000 who don't seem  
> to care. I think we have a high spectator count.
>
> --
> Dean
>
>