Subject: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009

From: IETF Chair <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:33:34 -0700 (PDT)

In our continuing effort to ensure that IETF WGs are getting enough
meeting time to progress their work, we are conducting another experiment.
  Many WGs have found interim meetings an effective way to tackle thorny
technical issues, resolve contentious technical issues, accelerate
standards development, and provide traction for new work.  As always, an
interim WG meeting is not a substitute for a regular session at the
traditional IETF meeting.  Since some WG Chairs and ADs have found the
amount of time necessary to put together an interim meeting can be
excessive, we are trying to reduce the effort necessary to conduct an
interim meeting to determine whether reducing this burden will expedite
IETF standards development.  To this end, the Secretariat will facilitate
a large interim meeting from 20-22 January 2009 in Malta.  If you are
interested in participating in this experiment, please contact your Area
Director for approval.  All face-to-face interim meetings require AD
approval, and this is no exception.  The IETF Secretariat is putting
together a program with three full days and four tracks on each day.  Each
WG interim meeting is expected to consume at least one full day on one of
the tracks.

ADs will schedule the sessions.  A URL for the schedule will be announced
shortly.  Once it is available, if you detect a scheduling conflict,
please raise the concern with your AD for resolution.  Session time is
limited, and sessions will be allocated first come, first served.

The Secretariat will provide registration, food and beverage, audio
visual facilities, and on site registration support.  VeriLAN will provide
network and audio streaming support.  It is expected that the meeting fee
will be $375 for early registration and $475 for late registration.

The Internet Society is looking for meeting sponsors for this event. 
Anyone interested please contact Drew Dvorshak <[email-masked]>.

Russ

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:34:48 -0500

Are we crazy? Malta is an astoundingly expensive destination. As far  
as I can tell, it's not even served by a major airline. Tickets from  
the US start at several thousands of dollars/euros/pounds and involve  
numerous plane-changes.

I don't know if you folks have noticed, but we have a recession going  
on here . . .

--
Dean Willis

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:01:09 +0300

Doesn't Lufthansa count as a major airline? Based on a quick check, 
flights from e.g. London or Frankfurt for those dates were about 
200 EUR (but yes, that means a plane change if coming from US).

Best regards,
Pasi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of ext Dean Willis
> Sent: 17 October, 2008 07:35
> To: IETF Chair
> Cc: Working Group Chairs
> Subject: Re: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009 
> 
> 
> the US start at several thousands of dollars/euros/pounds and 
> involve numerous plane-changes.
> 
> I don't know if you folks have noticed, but we have a 
> recession going on here . . .
> 
> --
> Dean Willis

---

From: Henk Uijterwaal <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:19:06 +0200

> 200 EUR (but yes, that means a plane change if coming from US).

There are more well known European airlines flying there.

You can also consider booking a package deal with a tour operator:
flight from a big European city, 4* hotel for 7 nights, breakfast/dinner
included, can be found in the 350 euro range.   Malta is a touristy
place, January is off-season, so you can get good deals.

Henk

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Henk Uijterwaal                           Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
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Ceterum censeo Asplain esse delendam  (Cato & Henk)

---

From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:32:39 +0300

Dean,

> the US start at several thousands of dollars/euros/pounds and involve 

I looked up some prices from my flight search tool, and here's what I got:

- 280 EUR from Helsinki (via LHR)
- 600 EUR from New York (via MUC)
- 1900 EUR from Chicago (maybe some creative flight booking 
opportunities here, if you can get from ORD to NY/LHR cheaply)
- 1600 EUR from SFO (see above)
- 1000 EUR from Tokyo (via LHR)

FWIW, my three last North American trips this fall have cost 1700 EUR 
each, far more than I have been used to pay (<< 1000 EUR). I don't know 
if I've been unlucky or if the price level has truly changed.

My conclusion is that there is significant variation in the prices, and 
you may look for ways to avoid the highest ones. But this is still in 
the same range as what I would expect to pay for an intercontinental 
trip. Of course the above prices may change when hundreds of IETFers 
have filled the airplane bookings for the available flights.

Does someone know if there's a ferry to Sicily?

Jari

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 08:11:45 -0500

I saw the Lufthansa flight. And, my experience has been that flying
through Frankfurt from DFW is often the lowest price (i.e., lower than
Paris, London, etc.) for the exact same dates and January often has some
of the lowest prices (at least $200 US less than summer rates). 

Also, booking both flights as part of the same trip can be more
expensive than booking each separately (in my experience).  The only
downside of this route is that you do need to stay overnite in
Frankfurt, but there are some reasonable hotels a shuttle ride from the
airport.

Mary. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of [email-masked]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:01 AM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009

Doesn't Lufthansa count as a major airline? Based on a quick check,
flights from e.g. London or Frankfurt for those dates were about 200 EUR
(but yes, that means a plane change if coming from US).

Best regards,
Pasi

---

From: Russ Housley <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:06:26 -0400

>I don't know if you folks have noticed, but we have a recession going

We looked at many locations, and the Hilton in Malta offered 
excellent meeting room rates and excellent guest room rates.  This is 
consistent with the point that others have already made.  January is 
off-season in Malta, and the hotel is offering very good rates as a result.

This site was better suited to the network.  The interim meeting will 
not involve as many concurrent sessions or as many people as an IETF 
meeting, so a scaled-down network is being planned.  Providing this 
scaled-down network in Malta was considerably less expensive at Malta 
than other sites that submitted bids.

So, in summary, it was recognized that it might cost a bit more to 
get to Malta than some of the other places that were considered, but 
not outrageously so.  And, those somewhat increased travel costs 
should be offset by these other savings.

Russ

---

From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:40:20 -0400

My knee-jerk reaction was identical to Dean's. "What, are we out of  
our mind?" Come on! The thread on the WG Chairs list immediately  
before this one essentially asks the question, "Will ANYBODY be coming  
to IETF 73 due to budget impacts?"

However, on reflection, and considering that 70% of the lead  
contributors in my active work group live in Europe, I begrudgingly  
have to say the choice is not *so* daft. (70% of the leads in another  
of my work groups live in Europe, too, but we should be DONE by IETF  
73, so this is moot for this discussion). If the next Mega-Interim is  
in Dailian,  Jeju, or Phuket (Asia ~ Malta, in off season) and the one  
after that is in Bretton Woods or Hilton Head (North America ~ Malta,  
in off season), than this was a sensible choice.

Look at this from the North American perspective. We are more than  
willing to share the burden of travel costs and time zones. However,  
if this is a one-time deal, the line that the conference fee is only  
$400 and the hotel is only $200/night gets totally lost in a $3,500  
air fare. This is more especially so given one can get to gateway  
cities in Europe and Asia for under $1,000. The $2,500 difference  
could be better paid to a gateway city hotel with the difference going  
to the IETF as a funding surplus :-)

On Oct 17, 2008, at 4:32 AM, Jari Arkko wrote:

> Dean,
>
>> Are we crazy? Malta is an astoundingly expensive destination. As  
>> far as I can tell, it's not even served by a major airline. Tickets  
>> from the US start at several thousands of dollars/euros/pounds and  
> FWIW, my three last North American trips this fall have cost 1700  
> EUR each, far more than I have been used to pay (<< 1000 EUR). I  
> don't know if I've been unlucky or if the price level has truly  
> changed.
>
> My conclusion is that there is significant variation in the prices,  
> and you may look for ways to avoid the highest ones. But this is  
> still in the same range as what I would expect to pay for an  
> intercontinental trip. Of course the above prices may change when  
> hundreds of IETFers have filled the airplane bookings for the  
> available flights.
>

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 19:15:01 -0500

On Oct 17, 2008, at 3:03 AM, Alexander Mayrhofer wrote:

> I agree. Malta is considered a cheap vacation destination here :)

Well, my first past of looking for flights found minimum costs of  
$2,800 (that's coach, not business), with 4 plane changes and two  
overnight stays required in each direction, and an additional  
overnight flight on the outbound leg. The only airline listed on the  
last hop was "Air Malta". Seven days of travel for a three day meeting  
is NOT productive, not counting recovery times!

Perhaps better routings exist, but they weren't evident using the  
regular approaches.

--
Dean

---

From: "Roni Even" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:43:20 +0200

Hi,
The major issue I see is that Malta is not a major city/hub for flights and
that what makes the trip more difficult. This makes long connections as
mentioned by Dean which I also saw even for flying from Tel Aviv (1100US$
and 20 hours trip including over 10 hours connection times in each
direction)

Roni Even

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
Of Dean Willis
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:15 AM
To: Alexander Mayrhofer
Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: AW: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009 

--
Dean

---

From: "Bernard Aboba" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:54:53 -0700

Dean Willis said:

"Well, my first past of looking for flights found minimum costs of  

regular approaches."

While it may not be easy to fund *any* travel nowadays, *assuming*
that a trip to Europe is feasible financially, then it would appear
that Malta is roughly in the same ballpark. 

The following website shows two British Airways flights to Malta:
http://www.attitudetravel.com/malta/lowcostairlines/
London Gatwick to Malta is 47 pounds; the return trip is 75 euros. 
Hard to find any flights *within* the US for similar prices. 

Using the following website, I was able to find a round-trip
Flight under $1200 with only one stop over (London):
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Flights-g190311-Malta-Cheap_Discount_Airfares.htm
l

One can also find various Air Malta flights.  The history of the
airline is detailed here, including their recent aircraft orders,
and baggage handling history (they apparently lose less baggage
than any other airline):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Malta

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:02:53 -0500

>Perhaps better routings exist, but they weren't evident using the

Dean - knowing you live near DFW -- American flies into both Heathrow 
(LHR) and Frankfurt (FRA), each of which has a direct flight (via Air 
Malta, and Lufthansa respectively) into Malta.

Seems like flying out through Frankfurt on flight AA#70, then 
connecting to a Lufthansa flight (and not Air Malta(!) which has a 12 
hour layover) is the way to go.

Coming back through LHR using Air Malta and catching AA#79 seems the 
best route.

that's 1 hop each way, and both have roughly a 3 hour layover each 
way, so that's not horrible.

The prices I see for this are around $1500 US roundtrip... during 
these dates in January.

YMMV though

just here to help  ;-)

James

---

From: Cullen Jennings <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:35:37 -0600

It seems to me that the high order bit on cost of the meeting is  
determined around if one has to take an oceanic flight or not. This is  
true regardless of if the "cost" is your time or the the actually  
expenses involved. Given the location of the IETF 73 and 74, I think  
many of the European folks would have a hard time justifying 3 trips  
to north america over a 4 month time period. I'm sure that was part of  
the considerations of proposing a site in Europe.

On Oct 17, 2008, at 8:02 PM, James M. Polk wrote:

> Dean - knowing you live near DFW -- American flies into both  
> Heathrow (LHR) and Frankfurt (FRA), each of which has a direct  
> flight (via Air Malta, and Lufthansa respectively) into Malta.
>
> connecting to a Lufthansa flight (and not Air Malta(!) which has a  
> 12 hour layover) is the way to go.
>

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:53:16 -0500

On Oct 19, 2008, at 9:35 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:

> determined around if one has to take an oceanic flight or not. This  
> is true regardless of if the "cost" is your time or the the actually  
> to north america over a 4 month time period. I'm sure that was part  
> of the considerations of proposing a site in Europe.

I don't object to a European hub city. It remains to be determined  
whether Malta qualifies.

What do we know about alternate sleeping arrangements? Euros 150 a  
night is not a possibility. We've been able to get below 70 a night in  
Dublin and Amsterdam recently.

--
Dean

---

From: Cullen Jennings <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 09:54:01 -0600

On Oct 19, 2008, at 11:53 AM, Dean Willis wrote:

>> is true regardless of if the "cost" is your time or the the  
>> actually expenses involved. Given the location of the IETF 73 and  
>> 74, I think many of the European folks would have a hard time  
>> justifying 3 trips to north america over a 4 month time period. I'm  
>> sure that was part of the considerations of proposing a site in  
>> Europe.
>
> I don't object to a European hub city.

Uh, yah, I was just trying to justify the choice of Europe. I don't  
know much about how we make the choice of actually locations. I do  
believe the people that do know about the choice of locations put a  
lot of thought into it. And don't even get me going about how much I  
love Minneapolis :-)

---

From: Geoff Mulligan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 20:17:31 -0600 (MDT)

I have no issue with the Interim being held in Europe, especially since
IETF 73 and 74 are in the US, but since nearly every message about getting
to Malta from the US has suggested flying through Frankfurt, why don't we
hold the Interim in Frankfurt?  Isn't this off season for Germany just as
much as off-season for Malta.

I'm sure that we can find reasonable rate hotels in Frankfurt and the
travel time to Frankfurt doesn't involve 3 or more planes.  In most cases
to Frankfurt is just one.

A quick search on Kayak showed that fly to Frankfurt was nearly $800
cheaper.

One other question, why are we starting the Interim on Tuesday?  If the
Interim started on Monday it would be easier to justify leaving on
Saturday which chops nearly another $600 off the cost

Saturday to Frankfurt round trip -> $760
Sunday to Malta round trip -> $2100

     geoff

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:35:18 -0500

Geoff,

I'm not sure where you got the Malta price. I just checked on
Travelocity and got a price of $364.90 RT for FRA-MLA - that's booking
each leg separate (DFW <-> Frankfurt is  $752.40).    Of course, that is
leaving on Saturday and early booking. I've never been to Malta and
likely will never go again, so I do plan on taking the extra day or so
of my own time. I did get the $2500 + price if I booked the flight as
one trip on AA.com.

Regards,
Mary. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Geoff Mulligan
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:18 PM
To: Cullen Jennings
Cc: Working Group Chairs
Subject: Re: AW: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009

I have no issue with the Interim being held in Europe, especially since
IETF 73 and 74 are in the US, but since nearly every message about
getting to Malta from the US has suggested flying through Frankfurt, why
don't we hold the Interim in Frankfurt?  Isn't this off season for
Germany just as much as off-season for Malta.

I'm sure that we can find reasonable rate hotels in Frankfurt and the
travel time to Frankfurt doesn't involve 3 or more planes.  In most
cases to Frankfurt is just one.

Saturday to Frankfurt round trip -> $760 Sunday to Malta round trip ->
$2100

     geoff

> >>>> Doesn't Lufthansa count as a major airline? Based on a quick 
> >>>> check, flights from e.g. London or Frankfurt for those dates were

> >>>> about 200 EUR (but yes, that means a plane change if coming from
US).
> >> overnight flight on the outbound leg. The only airline listed on 
> >> the last hop was "Air Malta". Seven days of travel for a three day 
> >> meeting is NOT productive, not counting recovery times!
> >>

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:46:46 -0500

Actually, I've got to make a correction here. I just was double checking
if I traveled on Sunday (leaving DFW on Sat) and see that what I thought
was a per leg price to Malta is RT and it's even cheaper on Sunday -
$359.65 with taxes.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Barnes, Mary (RICH2:AR00)
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:35 AM
To: Geoff Mulligan; Cullen Jennings
Cc: Working Group Chairs
Subject: RE: AW: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009

Geoff,

Regards,
Mary. 

-----Original Message-----

     geoff

US).

---

From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:05:48 -0400

Just a note of caution - if you plan to check bags, take care if you
book separate legs instead of a complete itinerary, since unless you
have a really good travel agent booking it, you'll most probably have
to collect your bags at the transfer point and re-check in for the
second flight. It's much easier to do with only carry-ons.

Cheers,
Andy

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:09:00 -0500

I actually get the lowest price booking arriving on Monday: $323.70
(FRA<->MLA).  This is through Travelocity and not my corporate tool. We
can't use our online tool for international travel, but the agents we
use typically will look at both options - a single ticket/booking code
versus booking it as two separate trips.  Again, I'm doing the latter in
looking at prices.

I cannot disagree it is certainly cheaper to fly straight to FRA, but my
experience has been the hotel rates there are likely higher than Malta
(at least as indicated by Russ previously). 

This does add one more day to my trip, but that's no different than
Prague and I don't recall complaints about that location (despite the
fact that I had the scariest ride I've ever had in a taxi on my return -
literally through fields - a supposed "short-cut") So, the travel to
this location seems equivalent to me in terms of starting out from DFW.
And, I agree that this is fair in terms of meetings for folks in Europe
- at least in the RAI area, all the past SIP/SIPPING interim meetings
have been in NA - at least half in Dallas, so I guess that's why I don't
feel I can complain about this Malta choice.  Of course, that doesn't
mean the folks that approve my travel will agree, but that's a different
issue. IMHO, the sooner we can confirm the location, the better for
everyone in terms of traversing the travel approval chains and getting
the best airfares. 

Regards,
Mary. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mulligan [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:02 PM
To: Barnes, Mary (RICH2:AR00)
Cc: Cullen Jennings; Working Group Chairs
Subject: RE: AW: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009

My point exactly.  If you want to spend extra days (Sunday and Monday -
the interim doesn't start until Tuesday) and expense on hotel rooms then
you can save on the flight and spend it on the hotel and also spend an
extra $360 just to get from Frankfurt to Malta.

If you can't afford the time to get a Saturday into your trip you save
on the hotel but then have to pay a huge increase to leave on Sunday.

The point is: it is certainly cheaper to fly to just Frankfurt (as your
pointed out) than to go to Malta and it is even cheaper to Frankfurt if
the interim started late Sunday or Monday so that leaving on Saturday
made sense.

	geoff

On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 11:46 -0500, Mary Barnes wrote:
> Actually, I've got to make a correction here. I just was double 
> checking if I traveled on Sunday (leaving DFW on Sat) and see that 
> what I thought was a per leg price to Malta is RT and it's even 
> cheaper on Sunday -
> $359.65 with taxes.
> 

> I have no issue with the Interim being held in Europe, especially 
> since IETF 73 and 74 are in the US, but since nearly every message 
> about getting to Malta from the US has suggested flying through 
> Frankfurt, why don't we hold the Interim in Frankfurt?  Isn't this off

> season for Germany just as much as off-season for Malta.
> 
> One other question, why are we starting the Interim on Tuesday?  If 
> the Interim started on Monday it would be easier to justify leaving on

> > is

> > of

> > >> the last hop was "Air Malta". Seven days of travel for a three 
> > >> day meeting is NOT productive, not counting recovery times!
> > >>

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:11:01 -0500

Yep. Although, my experience has been worse in terms of booking the
single leg. On my return from Dublin, I flew through London and stayed
overnite there. Aer Lingus was so kind as to check my bag all the way
through, thus I spent the nite in London without my bag (after spending
an hour at the airport trying to find somebody that actualy cared about
the problem.). So, in my experience no matter how you book, your luggage
is always at risk, which is why I typically only check my bag on the
return trip.

Mary.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew G. Malis [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:06 PM
To: Barnes, Mary (RICH2:AR00)
Cc: Geoff Mulligan; Cullen Jennings; Working Group Chairs
Subject: Re: [IAB] WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009

Just a note of caution - if you plan to check bags, take care if you
book separate legs instead of a complete itinerary, since unless you
have a really good travel agent booking it, you'll most probably have to
collect your bags at the transfer point and re-check in for the second
flight. It's much easier to do with only carry-ons.

Cheers,
Andy

---

From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:17:46 +0200

I actually would like to suggest to have two interim meeting
options on two successive weeks. One in NY (or Washinton 
DC or Boston), the second one in Frankfurt (or London or Paris). 

This would enable:
- meeting attendings to find cheap tickets to hub locations
and to save time with shorter flights
- the WGs to decide themselves having the meeting in Europe
or US
- ADs to attend two meeting (or possibly one) instead of many 

Cheers, 
Mehmet

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of ext Geoff Mulligan
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 4:18 AM
> To: Cullen Jennings
> Cc: Working Group Chairs

---

From: Geoff Mulligan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:02:14 -0600

geoff

---

From: "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:24:38 +0200

One thing I would suggest is that you start looking at the price of
airfares + hotels. 

Aside from the meeting hotel, I think you will find that the cost of
hotel rooms in Malta is less than half the price of those in Frankfurt.

Regards

Keith

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Geoff Mulligan
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:02 PM
> To: Mary Barnes
> My point exactly.  If you want to spend extra days (Sunday 
> and Monday - the interim doesn't start until Tuesday) and 
> expense on hotel rooms then you can save on the flight and 
> spend it on the hotel and also spend an extra $360 just to 
> get from Frankfurt to Malta.
> 
> If you can't afford the time to get a Saturday into your trip 
> you save on the hotel but then have to pay a huge increase to 
> leave on Sunday.
> 
> The point is: it is certainly cheaper to fly to just 
> Frankfurt (as your pointed out) than to go to Malta and it is 
> even cheaper to Frankfurt if the interim started late Sunday 
> or Monday so that leaving on Saturday made sense.
> 
> 	geoff
> 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On 
> > Behalf Of Geoff Mulligan
> > > >>> I agree. Malta is considered a cheap vacation 
> destination here 
> > > >>> :)
> > > >>
> > > > Coming back through LHR using Air Malta and catching 
> AA#79 seems 
> > > > the
> > 
> > > > best route.
> > > >

---

From: "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:27:06 +0200

So you want the secretariat to have the cost of hosting two separate
meetings and then leave it to each WG to fail to make any decisions on
location. 

Or are you offering to set up at least one of these locations without
the secretariats assistance.

Regards

Keith

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet 
> (NSN - DE/Munich)
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:18 PM
> To: ext Geoff Mulligan; Cullen Jennings
> Cc: Working Group Chairs
> options on two successive weeks. One in NY (or Washinton DC 
> or Boston), the second one in Frankfurt (or London or Paris). 
> 
> This would enable:
> - the WGs to decide themselves having the meeting in Europe or US
> > destination here :)
> > > >> last hop was "Air Malta". Seven days of travel for a 
> three day  
> > > >> meeting
> > AA#79 seems the

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:27:21 -0500

so - how easy is it to learn which WGs are going to meet at this event ?

All this dialog is nice, but not everyone will be able to go to 
*any*/*every* IETF interim; they may have to justify going to this interim.

I strongly recommend we have an ongoing _visible_ list of all those 
WGs that want/have been approved to meet - so that those of us that 
see a WG that we feel we need to attend is on said list, we can start 
the process of justifying the cost/time to our respective boss's.

I read recently that the availability of slots were running out fast. 
Who has the list *and* will they share the list so we can make this 
decision whether we need to start our internal processes or not.

Thank you!

---

From: "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:33:16 +0200

It is here

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/2009/jan-large-interim/

As announced on this list on 17th October.

Keith 

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of James M. Polk
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 12:27 AM
> To: Working Group Chairs
> I strongly recommend we have an ongoing _visible_ list of all 
> those WGs that want/have been approved to meet - so that 
> those of us that see a WG that we feel we need to attend is 
> on said list, we can start the process of justifying the 
> cost/time to our respective boss's.
> 
> Who has the list *and* will they share the list so we can 
> make this decision whether we need to start our internal 
> processes or not.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> > > [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Ersue, 
> Mehmet (NSN - 
> > > DE/Munich)
> > > I actually would like to suggest to have two interim 
> meeting options 
> > > on two successive weeks. One in NY (or Washinton DC or 
> Boston), the 
> > > second one in Frankfurt (or London or Paris).
> > >
> > > This would enable:
> > > - meeting attendings to find cheap tickets to hub 
> locations and to 
> > > save time with shorter flights
> > > > Frankfurt, why don't we hold the Interim in Frankfurt?  
> Isn't this 
> > > > off season for Germany just as much as off-season for Malta.
> > > >
> > > > A quick search on Kayak showed that fly to Frankfurt was nearly 
> > > > $800 cheaper.
> > > >
> > > > One other question, why are we starting the Interim on 
> Tuesday?  
> > > > If the Interim started on Monday it would be easier to justify 
> > > > leaving on Saturday which chops nearly another $600 off the cost
> > > >
> > > > Saturday to Frankfurt round trip -> $760 Sunday to Malta round 
> > > > trip -> $2100
> > > >
> > > >      geoff
> > > >
> > > >

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:44:45 -0500

Thanks

I hadn't seen the updated version of the page

---

From: "Narayanan, Vidya" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:23:04 -0700

Do we have an idea of when the WG list for the interim is supposed to be finalized? 

- Vidya 

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 4:33 PM
> To: James M. Polk; Working Group Chairs
> > so - how easy is it to learn which WGs are going to meet at 
> this event 
> > ?
> >

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:55:21 -0500

> (at least as indicated by Russ previously).

I've traveled through Frankfurt many times, and have usually managed a  
euros 50 or less room rate. There are plenty of budget facilities in  
Frankfurt, and excellent local transit support.

As for Malta . . .?

--
Dean

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:25:13 -0500

so far, there are 3 empty slots

         (though one is slotted for a RAI WG of unknown origin  ;-)

I don't know if the schedule can be set with 3 slots open...

Also, SIP and SIPPING are listed as tentative, so that might 
realistically mean there are 5 open slots - or at least there are 5 
tentative (at best) open slots.

How else can it be interpreted?

James

---

From: "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:04:48 +0200

>From the SIP perspective we will be discussing it with the ADs early in
IETF#73 so I guess it will be finalised at IETF#73 at least as far as
SIP inclusion or not. This is partly dependent on how many current
issues we can resolve in the time available in IETF#73, which in itself
is dependent on whether we keep the time we have asked for, and in how
much the editors do the work needed before that meeting to identify all
the issues that need resolving.

Regards

Keith

> From: Narayanan, Vidya [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 2:23 AM
> To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); James M. Polk; Working Group Chairs
> > > *any*/*every* IETF interim; they may have to justify 
> going to this 
> > > interim.
> > > 
> make this 
> > > > > > > >>>> Doesn't Lufthansa count as a major airline? 
> Based on a
> > > > > > quick check,

---

From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 09:08:56 -0500

I realize folks may say, "Malta is cheap. People should be happy the  
facilities cost is only $400 instead of $700." However, please  
consider the following.

The vast majority of interims I have attended or organized have been  
hosted.  When I say "hosted", I mean we met at the sponsoring  
company's meeting room, using the sponsoring company's Internet, and  
taking advantage of the sponsor company's corporate rates at local  
hotels. That is, the cost to the company is not paying for some  
conference facility - the cost to the company is virtually zero. Some  
hosts, but not all, payed for lunch, too. That was nice.

As far as the participants know, the cost to attend is purely travel,  
(discounted) lodging, and food.

The largest interim one I've attended was was SIP/SIPPING at  
dynamicsoft in Dallas; the smallest one I ran was 12 people for  
LEMONADE in Toronto at BEA.

Once we had to cough up $30/pp for a hotel conference room.

A question in my head: Is there synergy in terms of lots of related  
groups, with mostly the same people attending, such that holding a  
mega-interim minimizes travel? Or, is there synergy in terms of cross- 
fertilization between groups?  I would offer clearly if it is the  
latter, then this mega-interim is just a plenary, and means the  
suggestion to go to 4 IETF meetings per year is the way to go.  
Honestly, I don't see that much on the former, unless SIP/SIPPING/ 
(MMUSIC?) has a full agenda.

My epiphany was the realization my dissonance was paying from an order  
of magnitude more to infinitely more for the facilities and, as  
everyone else has mentioned, the venue being relatively hard to get to.

---

From: "Roni Even" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:03:45 +0200

Hi,
I want to add to Eric's point, we had two interims that covered multiple
WGs, in Las Vegas 2002 and Boston 2004. Both were not at a company facility
(Boston sponsored by Nokia and I think Las Vegas was during a trade show
that gave us the conference room) but I think both had just one session and
not parallel sessions with multiple rooms. Still we had to pay only for the
travel and rooms and not for the meeting
Roni Even

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
Of Eric Burger
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 4:09 PM
To: Working Group Chairs
Subject: Epiphany on Interim Sponsorship

---

From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 23:07:42 +0300

Eric,

Yes, and I guess this is the reason why the January meeting is a one 
time experiment. Lets see how it works out and then decide whether its 
the right model or not.

That being said, I recently had to organize a large interim meeting, and 
it can be a lot of work, and involve a non-trivial cost for the host in 
terms of catering, equipment, and employee time to set everything up. It 
was a lot of fun and in my case we had the opportunity to be a host. 
However, having hosted both small and large interim meetings, I have to 
say that the difference is big. It is a lot easier to let Ray worry 
about whether the size of the meeting room is going to be sufficient or 
about the expertise needed to set up AV streaming. I'd say the cost of a 
meeting is primarily dictated by its size and service level: using a 
hotel costs more than a company meeting room, catering for a large group 
costs more than few sandwiches for a dozen participants, etc. Given a 
particular setup, the costs can then be covered in various ways, by 
finding a host/sponsor, meeting fees, etc. The IETF financing model also 
factors in; things like the RFC Editor operation are paid by meeting 
fees + ISOC fees from corporate sponsors. You change one, you have to 
change the other one too, or change the costs of the organization.

Given this, maybe the crucial question is whether a joint interim 
meeting of many groups is a useful concept for the participants. I know 
it is useful for some (like ADs and key participants who appear to be 
working in all WGs). But is it useful for a large enough number of people?

Jari

Eric Burger wrote:
> mega-interim minimizes travel? Or, is there synergy in terms of 
> cross-fertilization between groups?  I would offer clearly if it is 
> the latter, then this mega-interim is just a plenary, and means the 
> Honestly, I don't see that much on the former, unless 
> SIP/SIPPING/(MMUSIC?) has a full agenda.
>

---

From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:27:41 -0400

On the other hand, I think people need to be able to set travel plans
for January well before the upcoming IETF meeting, both for approvals
processes and to get the best possible air fare (plus some may need
visas for Malta).

Thanks,
Andy

---

From: Cullen Jennings <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:06:25 -0600

This got discussed on the IESG call yesterday and I believe the final  
list of WG meeting at the interim  should be set by November 22. That  
said, we do want to be able to list certain WG as definite meeting  
before that date.

Hope that helps,

Cullen

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:00:49 -0500

At 11:06 AM 10/31/2008, Cullen Jennings wrote:

>list of WG meeting at the interim  should be set by November 22.

this seems awfully late to make flight reservations with the 
tightening travel budgets many of us are feeling.

For example, SIP and SIPPING are still listed as tentative (as they 
have been since day 2 of on this 
url  http://trac.tools.ietf.org/2009/jan-large-interim/ ).

Are we expected to sit in a holding pattern waiting to see if any of 
our WGs want to meet at this far off distance island (at least it is 
to everyone not in Europe)?

BTW - I would be making the same comment if this were in NA, as 
travel budgets in this global downturn are (likely) affecting all travel.

>That

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:04:53 -0500

I honestly can't get travel approval for a few more weeks (i.e., my
request is in the bucket to get sorted through end of November), so I
guess it's YMMV.  A few of us had discussed this offline and some seem
to think that you may see a dip in airfares 4 weeks before. Most
airlines (at least AA that I'm guessing you're taking from DFW) will
honor lower rates if you've bought a ticket at a higher rate (i.e., give
you a credit) - at least they did that for me in the past.  

Mary. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of James M. Polk
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 1:01 PM
To: Cullen Jennings; Vidya Narayanan; Working Group Chairs
Subject: Re: AW: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009

>list of WG meeting at the interim  should be set by November 22.

this seems awfully late to make flight reservations with the tightening
travel budgets many of us are feeling.

For example, SIP and SIPPING are still listed as tentative (as they have
been since day 2 of on this url
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/2009/jan-large-interim/ ).

Are we expected to sit in a holding pattern waiting to see if any of our
WGs want to meet at this far off distance island (at least it is to
everyone not in Europe)?

BTW - I would be making the same comment if this were in NA, as travel
budgets in this global downturn are (likely) affecting all travel.