Subject: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees

From: Alexa Morris <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:55:07 -0700

Working Group Chairs,

Clearly, an IETF meeting can be a pretty heady and overwhelming  
experience for the uninitiated. Because of this, we have been thinking  
about how to help first-time attendees feel welcome, increase their  
"ramp up" speed and encourage continued involvement.  And we believe  
that one of the keys is to make sure that 1st timers connect with the  
more experienced and informed members of the IETF community.

One idea under discussion is to open up the Welcome Reception -- to  
1st timers and WG Chairs only -- an hour earlier (4-5pm). Drink  
tickets, or equivalent, would be provided.

Would you attend? If not, what would entice you to attend? Or can you  
suggest any other ways that we can encourage face-to-face  
communication between you and the 1st time attendees?

Many thanks,
Alexa

-----------------
Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF
48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA  94538
Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001
Email: [email-masked]

Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS)
Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning
www.amsl.com <http://www.amsl.com/>

---

From: Tom Taylor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:04:33 -0400

I would proabably attend, unless I had corridor business I couldn't move.

Alexa Morris wrote:
> One idea under discussion is to open up the Welcome Reception -- to 1st 
> timers and WG Chairs only -- an hour earlier (4-5pm). Drink tickets, or 
> equivalent, would be provided.
> 
> suggest any other ways that we can encourage face-to-face communication 
> between you and the 1st time attendees?
> 
> Many thanks,
> Alexa
> 
> -----------------

---

From: James M Galvin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:11:57 -0400

I think this is a great idea.

What color dot would first time attendees wear?  :-)

Jim

-- On October 28, 2008 1:55:07 PM -0700 Alexa Morris <[email-masked]> 
wrote regarding Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees 
--

> experience for the uninitiated. Because of this, we have been
> thinking about how to help first-time attendees feel welcome,
> increase their "ramp up" speed and encourage continued involvement.
> And we believe that one of the keys is to make sure that 1st timers
> connect with the more experienced and informed members of the IETF
> community.
>

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:12:11 -0400

> What color dot would first time attendees wear?  :-)

Transparent, of course.

Marshall

> Jim
>
>
>
> -- On October 28, 2008 1:55:07 PM -0700 Alexa Morris  
> <[email-masked]> wrote regarding Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs  
> and 1st Time Attendees --
>
>> Working Group Chairs,
>>

---

From: "Ross Callon" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:12:15 -0400

This may seem like a petty point, but if the food is there for the early
hour, then just the combination of this being specifically asked of the
WG chairs, plus having early access to refreshments, might bring some
folks in early. 

Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Alexa Morris
Sent: 28 October 2008 16:55
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees

Working Group Chairs,

Many thanks,
Alexa

-----------------

---

From: "David Harrington" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:51:11 -0400

I would certainly consider attending such a reception. 

I have concerns though.
I use the reception to make contact with relevant other chairs and
other oldtimers and then usually head to dinner someplace. I could
envision making the contacts I need at the first-timers reception, and
heading to dinner before the "crowds" descend on the regular
reception.  And I can envision getting into discussions with other
chairs that would leave the first-timers out. 

I wonder how well the "chairs and first-timers only" rule would be
enforced. What if a first-timer comes to the ietf with an experienced
colleague; do they have to leave the colleague outside? What if a
chair is between WG assignments; would they really be kept out? Would
it be limited to chairs, or to anybody that has a dot - IAB, IESG,
etc.

If you do this, I wonder if it might be useful to have tables with
signs for each area, so first-timers planning to attend WGs in a
particular area could meet chairs from that area rather than all the
WG chairs.

How many firsttimers are there usually? How many chairs?

dbh

> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Ross Callon
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 5:12 PM
> To: Alexa Morris; [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees
> 
> thinking

---

From: Andrew Sullivan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:55:47 -0400

I would go, but probably not this time (unless one of the enticements  
is the fee to change the plane ticket I already have ;-)

Andrew Sullivan
[email-masked]

---

From: Barry Leiba <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:21:39 -0400

> One idea under discussion is to open up the Welcome Reception -- to 1st timers
> and WG Chairs only -- an hour earlier (4-5pm). Drink tickets, or equivalent,
> would be provided.
>
> Would you attend? If not, what would entice you to attend? Or can you suggest
> any other ways that we can encourage face-to-face communication between you and
> the 1st time attendees?

I'd love to.  But I'm on the IAB (and there are several other WG chairs on the 
IAB), and we have meetings 'til 5 (and a full agenda).  The idea also conflicts 
with the Security Tutorial and Document Lifecycle sessions that go from 3 to 
4:45.  Both of those might be of interest to newcomers.

Barry Leiba
IAB, and DKIM working group chair

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 06:35:25 +0800

I should be able to attend at 4:00, as I will have landed at 2:00.  
Note that if we do that, we should probably have more than a blue dot  
- there should be some idea of what working groups we chair so that  
folks interested in specific working groups can figure out whom to  
talk with. That could be in the form of putting the name of the WG on  
our badge, or (my preference) a separate badge that I can wear for  
that hour.

On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:55 AM, Alexa Morris wrote:

> Would you attend? If not, what would entice you to attend? Or can  
> you suggest any other ways that we can encourage face-to-face

---

From: Robert Sparks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:36:38 -0500

You asked for other ways to encourage this interaction:

*) Make sure the 1st-timers know what the dots mean before they get  
there.
*) Create an "I'm willing to help new folks" symbol and let volunteers  
take the symbol on (have stickers people
     can put on their own badges) - there are people that can help 1st  
time attendees that aren't chairs.
*) Try a standing "new attendee meeting area" (all you need is a sign)  
near the registration desk.
     Encourage veteran attendees to go talk to two new people each at  
some point during the event.

RjS

---

From: Stewart Bryant <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:50:13 +0000

> communication between you and the 1st time attendees?
If I was there I would attend, but I would be reluctant to take an 
inconvenient flight routing to get there early for this. But basically 
this is a good idea.

Stewart

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:03:55 -0500

>our badge, or (my preference) a separate badge that I can wear for

+1

---

From: Paul Hoffman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 18:00:59 -0700

>WG chairs, plus having early access to refreshments, might bring some

This seems likely and, given the rudeness we saw in Dublin around the reception, might be a serious problem for the people at the door trying to prevent the "wrong people" from getting in.

A different idea is just to have folks gather outside the doors between 4 and 5, and maybe have someone every 15 minutes say "Who's a first-timer? Who's a chair? Meet!". That is, I don't think you need to induce friendly non-first-timers to show up with food or drinks.

I would show up for that as well, but my flight doesn't arrive until 4:30. I'll assume that even the finger food will be gone by the time I arrive; hopefully the first-timers are still around.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

---

From: [email-masked] (Scott O. Bradner)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:16:52 -0400 (EDT)

> *) Make sure the 1st-timers know what the dots mean before they get  

the ones that go to the newcomers tutorial get told about dots

Scott

---

From: John Jason Brzozowski <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:02:20 -0400

This is a good idea.  I support this and would certainly attend.

John

> communication between you and the 1st time attendees?

=========================================
John Jason Brzozowski
Comcast Corporation
e) mailto:[email-masked]
m) 609-377-6594
=========================================

---

From: "Mani, Mahalingam (Mani)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:15:39 -0600

I support the idea. I just won't be able to make the travel-adjustment
to make this time or earlier (I wish this query had come last week).

The purpose of this meeting is to as much as possible to put 1st timers
at ease more than getting them up to speed (which they surely would -
outside of this 1 hour - especially through newcomers' tutorial and
other peer-interactions).

Just another thought:
By dott'ing the first-timers' badges and encouraging chairs to be
sensitive to the first-timers' unfamiliarity and questions will serve
the meet-n-greet motive throughout the meeting - beyond that hour.

-mani
-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Alexa Morris
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 1:55 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees

Working Group Chairs,

Many thanks,
Alexa

-----------------

---

From: Henk Uijterwaal <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 04:34:03 +0100

> This is a good idea.  I support this and would certainly attend.

Good idea, we use it at the RIPE meetings as well and it certainly helps
newbies to get up to speed.  I'll be there.

Henk

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Henk Uijterwaal                           Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
RIPE Network Coordination Centre          http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone: +31.20.5354414
1001 EB Amsterdam      1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
The Netherlands        The Netherlands    Mobile: +31.6.55861746
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ceterum censeo Asplain esse delendam  (Cato & Henk)

---

From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:31:37 +0100

> communication between you and the 1st time attendees?

I think this is a great idea, and would attend (well, if I wasn't on  
the IAB...).

Best regards,

- - kurtis -

---

From: "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:11:07 +0100

I'd support it provided my schedule allows me to arrive in time, which
it usually does - and will in Minneapolis. And you don't need to bribe
me with drinks tickets either.

Could I suggest that if we do this, there is some sort of bridge between
the formal Newcomers Training session, and such a more informal session,
so that we take the audience from one to the other.

Regards

Keith 

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Alexa Morris
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 8:55 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Clearly, an IETF meeting can be a pretty heady and 
> overwhelming experience for the uninitiated. Because of this, 
> we have been thinking about how to help first-time attendees 
> feel welcome, increase their "ramp up" speed and encourage 
> continued involvement.  And we believe that one of the keys 
> is to make sure that 1st timers connect with the more 
> experienced and informed members of the IETF community.
> 
> One idea under discussion is to open up the Welcome Reception 
> -- to 1st timers and WG Chairs only -- an hour earlier 
> (4-5pm). Drink tickets, or equivalent, would be provided.
> 
> Would you attend? If not, what would entice you to attend? Or 
> can you suggest any other ways that we can encourage 
> face-to-face communication between you and the 1st time attendees?
> 
> Many thanks,
> Alexa
> 
> -----------------
> Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum 
> Management, Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com 
> <http://www.amsl.com/>
> 
>

---

From: Loa Andersson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:51:32 +0100

Kurtis,

Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote:
> I think this is a great idea, and would attend (well, if I wasn't on the
> IAB...).

well - I guess you wanted to say that we have an IAB meeting at the same
time :)

I will also be in the IAB mmeting, otherwise this is a good idea

/Loa
> - kurtis -

-- 
Loa Andersson

Principal Networking Architect
Acreo AB                           phone:  +46 8 632 77 14
Isafjordsgatan 22                  mobile: +46 739 81 21 64
Kista, Sweden                      email:  [email-masked]
                                           [email-masked]

---

From: "Donald Eastlake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:14:48 -0400

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Robert Sparks <[email-masked]> wrote:
>...
> *) Create an "I'm willing to help new folks" symbol and let volunteers take
> the symbol on (have stickers people
>    can put on their own badges) - there are people that can help 1st time
> attendees that aren't chairs.

I thought some active in the EDU team had such stickers at some
meetings but maybe it was less formal than that.

Donald

> *) Try a standing "new attendee meeting area" (all you need is a sign) near
> the registration desk.
>    Encourage veteran attendees to go talk to two new people each at some
> point during the event.
>
> RjS
-- 
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-634-2066 (home)
 155 Beaver Street
 Milford, MA 01757 USA
 [email-masked]

---

From: Ralph Droms <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:08:06 -0400

Great idea ... I already have my travel plans set and won't arrive in  
time to attend.  But, given sufficient advance notice, I would be  
willing to plan my travel to accommodate the event.

- Ralph

---

From: Sandra Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:42:09 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

Summary: good idea, but the timing is a problem.

I was going to say:

I think this is a good idea.  I will try to attend if flight schedules 
permit.  I particularly like the idea of grouping people by areas as I'm 
not sure whether newbies know exactly what working groups they want to 
attend.  You have to admit that putting a "sidr" sticker on my badge might 
not mean so much to new attendees (or experienced IETF-ers that aren't in 
routing or security).  Or "behave", which might be taken as an admonition 
to good conduct.  :-)

But then I read Barry's message.

I think that Barry's point that this time slot overlaps tutorials is 
important. I for one would not want newbies to miss tutorials in favor of 
meet-and-greet.  Is there anyway to facilitate this interaction that does 
not involve missing important tutorial time?

--Sandy

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Barry Leiba wrote:

>> timers
>> suggest
> I'd love to.  But I'm on the IAB (and there are several other WG chairs on 
> the IAB), and we have meetings 'til 5 (and a full agenda).  The idea also 
> conflicts with the Security Tutorial and Document Lifecycle sessions that go 
> from 3 to 4:45.  Both of those might be of interest to newcomers.
>
> Barry Leiba

---

From: "David Harrington" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:48:01 -0400

Hi,

I agree, We do not want to offer food and drinks as an incentive to
skip the tutorials that newbies should attend.

dbh 

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Sandra Murphy
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 10:42 AM
> To: Barry Leiba
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees
> 

> >> any other ways that we can encourage face-to-face 
> communication between you 
> >> and
> >> the 1st time attendees?
> >

---

From: Al Morton <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:58:33 -0400

At 10:42 AM 10/29/2008, Sandra Murphy wrote:
>Is there anyway to facilitate this interaction that does not involve 
>missing important tutorial time?

How about a New-Comer's Corner** of/during the regular social?
It's similar to Paul's suggestion, but we need a sign and
announcements at the appropriate tutorials.

buying the wgchairs a drink still works for me, too,
Al

** during the last IETF in Vancouver, there was a news story about
the increasing number of New-Comers in the area. It struck me as a very
welcoming moniker, and far preferable to immigrant, etc.

---

From: "Bert Wijnen \(IETF\)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:01:00 +0100

In principle I would try to be at such a gathering.
This IETF73 however, I have already booked my flights and I will only
arrive at the airport at 5:50pm, so I cannot make that earlier session.
I will even have to hurrie to make the normal welcome reception before
it closes.

Bert Wijnen
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alexa Morris 
  To: [email-masked] 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 9:55 PM
  Subject: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees

  Working Group Chairs,

  Many thanks,
  Alexa

  -----------------

---

From: Al Morton <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:08:05 -0400

>How about a New-Comer's Corner** of/during the regular social?

s/regular social/welcome reception/

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:11:08 -0400

> s/regular social/welcome reception/
Why not both ?

---

From: Alain Durand <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:18:09 -0400

I think this is an idea going in the right direction.

I would suggest to extend the concept further: I've observed that new
newcomers have little idea of what is going on in the wg. Could we have each
chair make a 5 min presentation about his/her wg? Like what is the charter,
what is being worked on at the moment, etc... This could be grouped by
areas, as we have too many wg to give 5 min each.
Anyway, this is my $.700

  - Alain.

---

From: "Spencer Dawkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:01:48 -0500

It does seem to me that a lot of the benefit happens if we have

- "First time attendee" dots - could the secretariat provide these? - and

- "willing to help" dots - we had these informally for a couple of IETFs 
around Seoul from the EDU team, but this faded out - could the secretariat 
provide these, upon request at registration?

We might get more benefit if we had more plans, but this would be an awesome 
start...

Thanks,

Spencer

---

From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:16:58 +0100

I think everybody who gets asked would answer 
as good as he can. So, I don't see any real need 
for "willing to help" dots.

I think the idea to provide a newbee meeting point
is a good one. I guess IETF insiders would volunteer 
to catch people from this meeting point which look as 
if they wanted to ask something. This can happen in 
most of the cases on-the-fly. I personally would be 
happy to answer questions in an adhoc fashion.

Cheers, 
Mehmet

> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of ext Spencer Dawkins
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:02 PM
> To: Robert Sparks; Alexa Morris
> Cc: [email-masked]

---

From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:37:08 -0400

Along those lines - would it be good or a waste of our time to make a  
cameo at the Newcomers' Training?

---

From: Lars Eggert <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:35:25 +0200

On 2008-10-29, at 18:01, ext Spencer Dawkins wrote:
> - "willing to help" dots - we had these informally for a couple of  
> IETFs around Seoul from the EDU team, but this faded out - could the  
> secretariat provide these, upon request at registration?

Just tell the newcomers that anyone with any color dot is willing to  
help. (Because we should be.)

Lars

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:43:17 -0500

I think the dots are a really good and practical suggestion. I do often
see people that seem slightly confused and a few have approached me in
the past with questions. But, I am always reluctant to approach the
confused people lest they be experienced IETFers and just have that
general appearance - no offense intended and maybe it's just how I read
people and/or cultural differences. I have taken it upon myself,
however, whenever I do see anyone hesitating around the food, warning
them if they don't grab something when they see it, it's likely to be
gone before they make up their mind ;)  

Another suggestion, as well, is to have WG chairs ask folks to raise
their hands if they are newbies (we do this in other organizations that
I belong to) so that the experienced folks might help explain things
when the WG sessions appear to be getting out of control.  I think the
way our meetings are run is fairly unique amongst SDOs. I'd even go so
far as to say that the lack of organization is vastly exagerrated
outside IETF (i.e., folks tend to miss the  underlying method to our
apparent madness). 

I do like the idea of having a general open session with the new folks
prior to the start of the week's meetings. Perhaps doing this at noon
and have it be advertised more as an "open house" approach and have the
tables and areas designated as others have suggested. I can't quite
envision how the folks would find the right contacts even if we did have
badges due to the potential volume of people. My experience with events
of even 100 people is that you usually only get to chat with 10 or so
effectively and often don't even connect with people that you had
intended to. I'm thinking this session could work kindof like career
fairs (at least the ones I attended 20 years ago), where the areas/WG
chairs would have some sort of handout with the agendas, topic summaries
for the week ahead or links to everything.  I realize that handouts are
not green and that all the info is available online, but navigating all
the info can be somewhat difficult for new folks and many may arrive at
the meeting not having the best idea of what topics are relevant to
which WGs, based on their interests (it's impossible to follow all the
WG mailing lists in RAI).  And, more importantly, I think if we do it
this way, it would give the WG chairs a chance to find out what the
folks interests are. This may not be applicable to all areas, but with
RAI currently going through the process of figuring out how to be more
effective and which topics are of interest to the broader community,
this could be really helpful. 

Regards,
Mary. 
SIPPING WG co-chair

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Spencer Dawkins
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:02 AM
To: Robert Sparks; Alexa Morris
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees

- "First time attendee" dots - could the secretariat provide these? -
and

- "willing to help" dots - we had these informally for a couple of IETFs
around Seoul from the EDU team, but this faded out - could the
secretariat provide these, upon request at registration?

We might get more benefit if we had more plans, but this would be an
awesome start...

Thanks,

Spencer

>> thinking about how to help first-time attendees feel welcome,
increase their

>> that one of the keys is to make sure that 1st timers  connect with 
>> the more experienced and informed members of the IETF  community.
>>
>> Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, 
>> Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com <http://www.amsl.com/>
>>
>
>

---

From: "Mani, Mahalingam (Mani)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:52:11 -0600

I (re)support the first-time attendee dots (what I meant by "dotting the
first-timer's badges" in my earlier email) idea: allows all (not only
chairs) to be disposed to help.

-mani
-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Mary Barnes
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:43 AM
To: Spencer Dawkins; Robert Sparks; Alexa Morris
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees

[Mani, Mahalingam (Mani)] [...]

Regards,
Mary. 
SIPPING WG co-chair

-----Original Message-----

Thanks,

Spencer

increase their

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:49:01 -0500

Personally, if I were a newcomer, I would be extremely reluctant to go
stand in a specific meeting place at a random point in time - maybe
that's a female or cultural perspective. A better idea might be to
suggest a meeting place for dinner and invite the new folks to join in.
For folks that arrive at the meeting not knowing anyone, having a group
to share a meal with can really help the newbie get to know folks. I'd
be happy to volunteer for any new folks with dietary restrictions ;)
Perhaps setting up a doodle for dinner plans at a specific restaurant
(or type of food) would allow us as "hosts" to plan the dinner.  And,
perhaps, designate this as Monday evening event. 

Mary. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:17 AM
To: ext Spencer Dawkins; Robert Sparks; Alexa Morris
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees

I think everybody who gets asked would answer as good as he can. So, I
don't see any real need for "willing to help" dots.

I think the idea to provide a newbee meeting point is a good one. I
guess IETF insiders would volunteer to catch people from this meeting
point which look as if they wanted to ask something. This can happen in
most of the cases on-the-fly. I personally would be happy to answer
questions in an adhoc fashion.

Cheers,
Mehmet

---

From: "Spencer Dawkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:40:04 -0500

Alexa, what number of first-time attendees are we talking about (based on 
the past few IETFs, so don't worry about predicting the future)?

We're starting to talk about ideas where knowing the scale matters...

Thanks,

Spencer

---

From: Alexa Morris <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:45:44 -0700

So far for Minneapolis we have 95 1st timers registered. We had 167  
attending in Philly, and 198 in Dublin.

Alexa

On Oct 29, 2008, at 10:40 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote:

> Alexa, what number of first-time attendees are we talking about  
> (based on the past few IETFs, so don't worry about predicting the  
> future)?
>

-----------

---

From: Ron Bonica <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:48:31 -0400

Free beer? I'm there!

         ;-)
         Ron

---

From: Sandra Murphy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:54:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

I was  thinking about this myself.

If we have 200 newcomers, going out to dinner might be a bit tricky to 
organize.

--Sandy

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, Spencer Dawkins wrote:

> Alexa, what number of first-time attendees are we talking about (based on the 
> past few IETFs, so don't worry about predicting the future)?
>

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:06:43 -0500

20 groups of 10 or 40 groups of 5 if we have enough chairs that want to
do this shouldn't be that difficult - if necessary you break into groups
of 4 or 6 at the restaurant.  In the past, I have found doodle really,
really helpful for organizing such dinners. I also don't think all
newcomers would be interested - some of them may well have folks from
their own organzations to shepherd and mentor them or prefer a grab-n-go
meal. We could certainly experiment, though. I might just do this,
independent of consensus, on the ietf-food list
([email-masked]) as dinnertime can be particularly difficult
for folks with restrictions that aren't as used to navigating a new city
or who aren't as obsessive as I am about pre-planning - I have eaten far
more meals than I would have liked to in my room (such things as nuts
and dried fruit or even worse canned foods).

An alternative would be to suggest in the case that the newcomers have
dots that the groups of folks that do normally gather in the hotel lobby
or IETF registration area, invite one or two newbies to join them. I
think we don't have to limit this welcoming approach to chairs, although
I think we should be leaders/examples for the initiative.  

Mary. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Sandra Murphy
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:54 PM
To: Spencer Dawkins
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees

--Sandy

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, Spencer Dawkins wrote:

> Alexa, what number of first-time attendees are we talking about (based

> on the past few IETFs, so don't worry about predicting the future)?
>

---

From: Russ Housley <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:40:58 -0400

So far, 95 first-time attendees have registered fro Minneapollis.

At 01:40 PM 10/29/2008, Spencer Dawkins wrote:
>(based on the past few IETFs, so don't worry about predicting the future)?
>

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:41:07 -0400

> - "First time attendee" dots - could the secretariat provide these?  

I am dubious about this. They will get people coming up to them asking  
questions, etc.

Could we have a different signifier, such as a different color for the  
name or a colored border at the
bottom of the call ?

Regards
Marshall

>> *) Create an "I'm willing to help new folks" symbol and let  
>> volunteers take the symbol on (have stickers people
>>    can put on their own badges) - there are people that can help  
>> 1st time attendees that aren't chairs.
>> *) Try a standing "new attendee meeting area" (all you need is a  
>> sign) near the registration desk.
>>    Encourage veteran attendees to go talk to two new people each  
>> at  some point during the event.
>>
>> RjS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> increase their "ramp up" speed and encourage continued  
>>> involvement.   And we believe that one of the keys is to make sure  
>>> that 1st timers  connect with the more experienced and informed  
>>> members of the IETF  community.
>>>
>>> One idea under discussion is to open up the Welcome Reception --  
>>> to  1st timers and WG Chairs only -- an hour earlier (4-5pm).  
>>> Drink  tickets, or equivalent, would be provided.
>>>

---

From: "Spencer Dawkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:53:16 -0500

Marshall's suggestion, if it works for the secretariat, would work for me...

I note that there's at least one current color collision from Dublin (can't 
actually tell the difference between blue and purple, which I think was IAOC 
or somesuch), so we might be looking for a non-dot marker in any event.

If drawing a red square around my name was the "willing to help" marker, and 
there were red markers at registration, I'd do-it-myself...

Spencer

---

From: Paul Hoffman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:55:50 -0700

>suggest a meeting place for dinner and invite the new folks to join in.

Wow. From the first-timers I have talked to, I would have thought the opposite was true: standing in some signed area where they could escape would be much more attractive than committing to a meal with a stranger.

I get a reasonable amount of first-timer feedback from my authorship of the Tao of the IETF (I bet Scott gets much more from teaching the tutorial). Much of what I hear is "I didn't know what was happening", not "I didn't know whom to ask". Many or most first-timers come from companies/organizations that are already sending other non-first-timers, and they get enough (often correct) info from their co-workers. Many or most are shy about saying "I don't know Xyz" in a group but do not seem so shy one-to-one.

Given that, emphasizing to them to ask anyone with a dot is a good thing. Having an area at the reception where the more brave ones can go to look for dot-wearers is also a good thing, as is having a chairs-and-newcomers-only pre-reception. Having a similar area at the social (which newcomers go to in very high proportion) is also good.

The main problem with "give newcomers a dot" is that it marks them in a possibly negative way. For example, there are folks in my WG (and maybe even among WG chairs...) who would discount a person at the mic making a hard-to-understand technical point if they had such a dot. It also makes them a target for people in the IETF who don't have good boundaries to go up and talk at them in ways that might be uncomfortable. Sad to say, but a female with a newcomer's dot would be a particularly scary thing, causing a weird scene between the buzzards and the protectors.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:11:02 -0500

I agree that depending upon who the people are, many folks would avoid a meal with a stranger, but given the role of WG chairs (and the suggestion that we do anything at all to encourage newcomers), I would not consider most chairs in the role of "stranger" - when I go to other conferences - I very often will have meals with folks that I've never met before (provided I'm not the only female in the crowd, of course) and if I'm with someone I do know, I often ask someone that I don't know that appears alone to join us.  I guess I'm just not an "escaper" when I'm at a meeting where there is a lot of value in meeting new people :)  And, if we designate as "coordinator" of the group dinner what our role is that lets folks join folks of similar interests (or not).  

And, this takes us to your last paragraph, which relates to my primary point:

1) I thought the whole idea of this was to kindof change how we do things - i.e., let's encourage folks as a whole not to discount newcomers (I'm having déjà vu of Radia's presentation).  In my view of the world, the dots might make them more comfortable in terms of folks recognizing that they might need help and that they may make a faux pas.   Perhaps, we give the folks the option of whether they choose a dot. 

2) Your last sentence was my point exactly - I would find the corral situation very intimidating if I was a newbie - it would also give me déjà vu of PE classes in school when teams are picked.

This is a good example of IETF consensus process - we each have views that are significantly different based on past experiences. 

One thought of mine is that in the past we had an ietf-systers group and there would be one nite where we got together - lots of folks meeting lots of folks they'd never met before. I randomly walked to the restaurant for one of these dinners in Yokohama with someone I'd never met before (Lisa Dusseault, not having a clue what her role in IETF was, but she did have a blue dot;) In the past, we often had a host for these dinners/receptions and I did get my company to help host one reception (but that's highly unlikely  right now). So, perhaps, my suggestion is only really applicable to the female crowd, which is a very, very small subset of IETF participants. 

Regards,
Mary. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Paul Hoffman
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:56 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: Meet-and-Greet Between WG Chairs and 1st Time Attendees

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--VPN Consortium

---

From: Radia Perlman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:25:08 -0700

I'm a bit skeptical about "first time attendees" needing more welcoming 
than, say, 2nd time attendees, or extremely
shy people that might have been to many IETF's, sat through 
incomprehensible WGs talking about nits on
documents, and never had a chance to go out to lunch or dinner with anyone.

I do like the notion of having places in the reception for "apps area 
enthusiasts", "routing geeks", "security types", etc., so
people are more likely to run into people with like interests.

And I do like the notion of telling *all* old-timers that they shouldn't 
just talk to their friends, but they should make an effort to
talk to people who look like they are shyly hanging around. Even for 
lunches and dinners, perhaps a place for shy people
to stand around, where meal caravans of people should grab a few of the 
strays to
include in their group, unless they really
are planning on talking about private stuff. And also point out that the 
"strays" can certainly go out with each other as well. Making
it clear that hanging around a specific place means "I'd like to be 
included in a meal group".

Basically, shy people need a way of easily feel like they can hang 
around other people without having to ask and be rejected.
And it's better if somehow they can find friendly people slightly more 
relevant to their technical interests.

Radia

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:36:29 +0800

On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:18 PM, Alain Durand wrote:

> Could we have each
> chair make a 5 min presentation about his/her wg?

120-or-so working groups, five minutes each... Could be a long meeting.

---

From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:02:28 +0100

On 28 okt 2008, at 23.36, Robert Sparks wrote:

> ou asked for other ways to encourage this interaction:
>

As a data point as I am currently at the RIPE meeting in Dubai. The  
RIPE NCC has actually worked on helping newcomers for quite some time.  
They have the newcomers meeting, with the WG chairs showing up and  
talking to all the newcomers. They also have what is called "Meet and  
Greet" where they have badges for part of the NCC staff, that is  
willing to help and explain the process and the topics. And they are  
very helpful with all kind of issues. Also, during the lunch times,  
there is a dedicated Meet and Greet lunch table, where NCC staff and  
willing WG chairs, sit down with the newcomers and have lunch and talk.

I think the newcomers concept in RIPE has worked very well, and you  
meet new and interesting people, as well as help them. I have to admit  
that I think the IETF must be (it certainly was for me) more  
overwhelming and complex to understand as a firsttimer than the RIPE  
meeting is.

Best regards,

- - kurtis -

---

From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:19:00 +0100

On 29 okt 2008, at 19.55, Paul Hoffman wrote:

>
> The main problem with "give newcomers a dot" is that it marks them  
> in a possibly negative way. For example, there are folks in my WG  
> (and maybe even among WG chairs...) who would discount a person at  
> the mic making a hard-to-understand technical point if they had such  
> a dot. It also makes them a target for people in the IETF who don't  
> have good boundaries to go up and talk at them in ways that might be  
> uncomfortable. Sad to say, but a female with a newcomer's dot would  
> be a particularly scary thing, causing a weird scene between the  
> buzzards and the protectors.

That surprises me. At RIPE newcomers have been given a small green dot  
for years, and I have never seen that have a negative impact.  
Personally I think it's the other way around, I try and talk to them  
and ask how they have experienced the meeting. That said, RIPE  
meetings in general tend to be a lot less 'confrontational' than  
discussions in the IETF can be.

Best regards,

- - kurtis -

---

From: Alain Durand <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 08:53:59 -0400

> 120-or-so working groups, five minutes each... Could be a long meeting.

This is why I was suggesting to group wg in areas and do this in parallel...
Similar to Radia's suggestion of  "apps area enthusiasts", "routing geeks",
"security types"...

We already have area meetings, but they tend to be more status or new work
started there. What I'm suggesting is more a tutorial.

  - Alain.