Subject: Sudden increase in unsubscribe notifications

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:38:03 -0600

I'm curious as to whether the other chairs are seeing an increase in  
the unsubscribe rate. In the last week, I've had more than a dozen  
people unsubscribed from SIP, mostly apparently deliberately. I  
realize SIP is a bit to keep up with, but the number of unsubscribes  
is almost unprecedented and not consistent with a major layoff.

Are we seeing this across multiple working groups, or is it just me?

--
Dean

---

From: Tom Taylor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 22:19:31 -0500

When it involved several individuals from the same company, I always took it for 
granted this was hard times hitting companies. one or two seem to have let a few 
people go this past week or two. Sad times.

Dean Willis wrote:
> 
> I'm curious as to whether the other chairs are seeing an increase in the 
> unsubscribe rate. In the last week, I've had more than a dozen people 
> unsubscribed from SIP, mostly apparently deliberately. I realize SIP is 
> a bit to keep up with, but the number of unsubscribes is almost 
> unprecedented and not consistent with a major layoff.
>

---

From: Barry Leiba <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 00:14:12 -0500

> When it involved several individuals from the same company, I always took it
> for granted this was hard times hitting companies. one or two seem to have
> let a few people go this past week or two. Sad times.

Indeed.  I, myself, have just been laid off from IBM (this is my first
week gone), and I'll continue my chair role (and perhaps new ones) on
my own.  But I've actually been doing IETF work on my own for the last
two IETF meetings, since IBM is effectively withdrawing most support
from IETF involvement, and hadn't been approving my travel anyway.

I don't think it's the only company doing that sort of thing in
response to how the economy has been, and it may be the cause of what
you're seeing.  I've heard that Cisco has severely cut travel (that's
been covered in the NY Times), so it'll be interesting to see if
there's a reduction in their attendance, particularly in Stockholm and
Hiroshima.  Of course, that wouldn't be a reason for them to
unsubscribe from mailing lists.

I haven't seen any drop in participation on the DKIM mailing list.

-- 
Barry Leiba, DKIM working group chair  ([email-masked])

---

From: Bernard Aboba <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 22:17:44 -0800

I have also seen an increase in the number of unsubscribes coming into
WG mailing lists.  At the moment this isn't a tsunami, but more of a 
steadily increasing flow.  

In addition to travel cutbacks (which are very prevalent now),  
companies are also taking additional efficiency measures, which
may include increasing product responsibilities.  So even if people 
have not yet been laid off, they have less time for standards 
activities. 

It's also worth noting that resource decisions often lag earnings
releases.  With the economy continuing to deteriorate,  we can
expect first quarter earnings to be more disturbing than last
quarter's results.  As a result, the IETF may not feel the full
impact of economic conditions until later in the year.

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 00:19:12 -0600

At 07:38 PM 3/5/2009, Dean Willis wrote:

>people unsubscribed from SIP, mostly apparently deliberately.

I think they're just tired of WGs lasting more than 10 years...

bwah-haha

I haven't seen much more than normal in TSVWG

James

>I

---

From: "Juergen Quittek" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 08:21:54 +0100

I saw a few more than usual, but wouldn't have noticed
the increase without you asking about it.

    Juergen

---

From: "Randy Presuhn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 23:39:03 -0800

Hi -

> From: "Tom Taylor" <[email-masked]>
> To: "Dean Willis" <[email-masked]>
> Cc: "Working Group Chairs" <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:19 PM
> Subject: Re: Sudden increase in unsubscribe notifications
>
...

On two of the lists I manage (agentx and disman) there were a lot
(dozens) of subscriptions which had been disabled due to excessive bounces.
I've been verifying manually that the addresses are truly dead.
In almost all cases this does indeed seem to be the problem,
and in a few cases all addresses associated with a particular
company have gone dead.

Randy

---

From: Ralph Droms <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 05:56:38 -0500

James - Excuse me?  There's a problem with WG that last more than 10  
years?  Where's the love, bro?

Anecdotally - I haven't been counting - I think I've seen an uptick in  
new subscribers joining the dhc WG mailing list, outnumbering any  
unsubscriptions..

- Ralph

---

From: Lars Eggert <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 12:09:14 +0100

> new subscribers joining the dhc WG mailing list, outnumbering any

That's your personal "new AD fan club" :-)

Welcome to the IESG, Ralph!

Lars

---

From: Ralph Droms <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 06:17:33 -0500

When do the IESG groupies usually show up?

- Ralph

---

From: Lars Eggert <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:10:55 +0100

> When do the IESG groupies usually show up?

You're confusing us with the IAB - we get all the work, they get all  
the glamor...

Lars

---

From: Olaf Kolkman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:16:01 +0100

> You're confusing us with the IAB - we get all the work, they get all  

The only IAB member that I have seen to collect groupies[*] has a  
yellow complexion and an orange nose...

--Olaf

[*]http://bert.secret-wg.org/Kisses/index.html

---

From: Ralph Droms <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 08:46:41 -0500

Nuts.  I must have checked off the wrong box on the questionnaire.

- Ralph

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 08:54:10 -0500

I have asked the Secretariat to see if statistics on this can be  
collected and
distributed.

Regards
Marshall

---

From: "David Harrington" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 09:06:29 -0500

Now I'm disappointed.
You meant statistics on the email bounce issue.

I thought you were going to collect and distribute statistics about
whether IESG or IAB get more groupies ;-)

dbh

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks
> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 8:54 AM
> To: Juergen Quittek
> Cc: Working Group Chairs

---

From: "Mary Barnes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 08:38:31 -0600

Yes, the unsubscribes I'm seeing seem to folks in the same situation -
e.g., folks from Nortel that are also being impacted by the latest
"industry trend", so their corporate emails are no longer valid.   Maybe
something for "Bert" to comment on.

Mary Barnes
SIPPING WG co-chair  

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On
Behalf Of Barry Leiba
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:14 PM
To: Working Group Chairs
Subject: Re: [IAB] Sudden increase in unsubscribe notifications

> When it involved several individuals from the same company, I always 
> took it for granted this was hard times hitting companies. one or two 
> seem to have let a few people go this past week or two. Sad times.

Indeed.  I, myself, have just been laid off from IBM (this is my first
week gone), and I'll continue my chair role (and perhaps new ones) on my
own.  But I've actually been doing IETF work on my own for the last two
IETF meetings, since IBM is effectively withdrawing most support from
IETF involvement, and hadn't been approving my travel anyway.

I don't think it's the only company doing that sort of thing in response
to how the economy has been, and it may be the cause of what you're
seeing.  I've heard that Cisco has severely cut travel (that's been
covered in the NY Times), so it'll be interesting to see if there's a
reduction in their attendance, particularly in Stockholm and Hiroshima.
Of course, that wouldn't be a reason for them to unsubscribe from
mailing lists.

---

From: "David A. Bryan" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:34:36 -0500

There has been a definite increase on P2PSIP as well. Not dramatic,
but noticeably more than a few months ago. Could just be that our work
is more "boring" now that it is down to the grind of actually doing
it, but could be the economy too...and yes...some addresses seem to
correlate to companies that are having troubles.

David

---

From: "James M. Polk" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 10:09:44 -0600

>years?  Where's the love, bro?

dude, I can't bag on you anymore about that - not since you were 
stupid enough to VOLUNTEER to become part of the IESG...

oh... did I really just write that?

I meant to just think it

oops!

_bad_ _dog_ (*slap*)

(but I'm still laughing my @!#$# off inside)

obviously - this is written with all the love in the world for you, Ralph...

(I really mean it this time)

:-p

---

From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 08:27:46 -0800

Looks to me like eliminating research and travel budgets has become the latest Wall Street trend. Growth expectations are low so suddenly the ability to cut costs has become the latest primary measure of managerial effectiveness.
 
Blame the cretins on CNBC who were telling people eight months ago that Citigroup was a bargain at $60

Its the same style of thinking that had people thinking that the millenium bug was the most urgent problem facing their businesses.

________________________________

From: [email-masked] on behalf of Barry Leiba
Sent: Fri 3/6/2009 12:14 AM
To: Working Group Chairs
Subject: Re: [IAB] Sudden increase in unsubscribe notifications

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:23:43 -0400

The Secretariat have duly produced data going back to last summer, and  
here is what it looks like plotted :

http://www.americafree.tv/papers/monthly.email.changes.png

The totals for this month are of course incomplete, but this does not  
look like a problem to me.

Regards
Marshall

---

From: Dean Willis <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:12:47 -0500

On Mar 12, 2009, at 4:23 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:

> The Secretariat have duly produced data going back to last summer,  
> and here is what it looks like plotted :
>
> The totals for this month are of course incomplete, but this does  
> not look like a problem to me.
>

Thanks! From the graph, it looks like a lot of people changed email  
addresses.  Some of them sucessfully unsubscribed, others let the  
automatics take care of it, some remain doubly-subscribed.

This would appear to be consistent with the "many layoffs" theory.

 From a chair point of view, it means we probably need to be paying a  
careful attention to bounce messages, as there are probably a lot of  
people who didn't subscribe and whose bounce messages aren't being  
recognized for automatic unsubscribes.

--
dean