Subject: Re: 78th IETF DRAFT Agenda

From: =JeffH <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 23:40:24 -0700

Thanks for all the work put into the agenda -- it's a big job and much 
appreciated.

I have some comments/requests..

1. The FedAuth BoF conflicts with the AppArea session. It's a reasonable guess 
that a fair number of apparea folk will be very interested in the fedauth BoF 
(I certainly am), even though it is nominally in the Sec area. Please, let's 
see what we can do to move it around (within the first say 3 days of the week?) 
but not have it conflict with (1st order) apparea, httpstate, httpbis, hybi, 
vwrap, oauth, marf; (2nd order) dnsext, alto, core, dkim, pkix, tls,  iri.

( a helping factor is that we (httpstate) may be notifying you later tomorrow 
(fri) that we'll need only 90 min rather than 2hr )

2. We have some web-oriented IETF newbies attending various web-ish/http-ish 
sessions, and we're trying to educate them that attending IETF is about more 
than one session, and that hallway conversations are good, as are attending 
other similar sessions, and being open to cross-pollination and such.

So having HyBi end up at the opposite end of the week (on Fri) from apparea, 
httpstate, httpbis, hasmat, fedauth, and oauth is decidedly sub-optimal. Is 
there any way to get /all/ those aforementioned sessions in (preferrably) a 
three day (e.g. Mon-Wed) stretch (pretty please) ?   It'll help to get them to 
stay longer than just a day or so, as well as helping with cross-polination, 
and socialization.

(these are folk that aren't quite yet ready to attend for the entire week for 
whatever reasons)

thanks!

=JeffH

---

From: Salvatore Loreto <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:47:05 +0200

> (these are folk that aren't quite yet ready to attend for the entire week for
I agree with Jeff, having HyBi end up at the opposite end of the week 
from all the other web-ish/http-ish
wgs does not help the effort we are trying to achieve to get more 
web/http people and more specifically W3C people
attending the related IETF wg meetings.

Moreover I requested a 1.5 time slot and HyBi get 2 one hour slots.
Having even only 1hour slot, but in one of the days where the other 
web-ish/http-ish meeting are scheduled,
would improve dramatically  the meeting productivity. what about 
switching HyBi with MORG
and moving HyBi on Tuesday afternoon in the slot 17:10-18:10 ?

cheers
Sal

-- 
Salvatore Loreto
www.sloreto.com

---

From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:05:16 +0100

> and moving HyBi on Tuesday afternoon in the slot 17:10-18:10 ?

This will create a conflict for Peter.

So how about an alternative proposal:

John, would it be Ok to swap EAI (Tuesday, 9:00am) and HyBi (Friday, 13:00).

Alternatively, we can move Hybi to Tuesday, 9:00 (currently EAI), move 
EAI to Thursday 13:00 (currently Sieve) and move Sieve to Friday 13:00.

I understand that nobody likes the crappy slot on Friday afternoon, but 
(a) moving Hybi out of Frirday is really important and (b) I am feeling 
like punishing some of my WGs that didn't do as much work recently as 
they should have ;-).

---

From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:27:41 +0100

=JeffH wrote:

> 1. The FedAuth BoF conflicts with the AppArea session. It's a 
> reasonable guess that a fair number of apparea folk will be very 
> interested in the fedauth BoF (I certainly am), even though it is 
> nominally in the Sec area. Please, let's see what we can do to move it 
> around (within the first say 3 days of the week?) but not have it 
> conflict with (1st order) apparea, httpstate, httpbis, hybi, vwrap, 
> oauth, marf; (2nd order) dnsext, alto, core, dkim, pkix, tls,  iri.

I can recommend swapping fedauth (9:00 on Monday) with krb-wg (17:40 on 
Monday). Fedauth requested 2 hours (currently in 2.5 hours slot) and 
krb-wg requested 1.5 hours (currently in 2 hour slot).
What Security ADs think abot that?

> ( a helping factor is that we (httpstate) may be notifying you later 
> tomorrow (fri) that we'll need only 90 min rather than 2hr )

---

From: Sam Hartman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 05:46:53 -0400

I have no problem with a krb-wg fedauth swap.  That does leave fedauth
opposite hasmat, which is bad although perhaps not as bad as aparea.

I do object fairly strongly to Jeff replacing the fedauth conflict list.
I'm about to catch a plane, but any of kitten, sidr, karp, krb-wg, xmpp
that I listed are hard conflicts; we'll lose chairs, presentors, ADs or
the like if we cannot make these conflicts.

I don't have time to look over the entire agenda and see if something
else works better before leaving.

---

From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:59:51 +0100

>opposite hasmat, which is bad although perhaps not as bad as aparea.
I already proposed to move hasmat, so even this conflict can be avoided.

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 09:25:57 -0400

--On Friday, June 25, 2010 10:05 +0100 Alexey Melnikov
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> I agree with Jeff, having HyBi end up at the opposite end of
>> the week  from all the other web-ish/http-ish
>> wgs does not help the effort we are trying to achieve to get
>> more  web/http people and more specifically W3C people
>> Moreover I requested a 1.5 time slot and HyBi get 2 one hour
>> slots. Having even only 1hour slot, but in one of the days
>> where the other  web-ish/http-ish meeting are scheduled,
>> would improve dramatically  the meeting productivity. what
>> about  switching HyBi with MORG
> Alternatively, we can move Hybi to Tuesday, 9:00 (currently
> EAI), move EAI to Thursday 13:00 (currently Sieve) and move
> Sieve to Friday 13:00.
> 
> I understand that nobody likes the crappy slot on Friday
> afternoon, but (a) moving Hybi out of Frirday is really
> important and (b) I am feeling like punishing some of my WGs
> that didn't do as much work recently as they should have ;-).

Well, as you probably deduced from my earlier note about slot
lengthss, I'm in favor of the "punishment" theory.  I do fear,
however, that moving EAT to Friday afternoon might bring
participation below critical mass.   So, yes, moving off that
Tuesday slot is ok with me, but I'd strongly prefer to go with
the alternate (EAI to Thursday 13:00) plan rather than the
Friday afternoon one if Sieve can survive Friday afternoon.

    john

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:06:40 -0400

Addendum:  I just realized that my comment earlier was probably
not clear enough.  If Cyrus and Aaron are not comfortable -- in
terms of likely availability of critical people, etc. --with the
Friday slot for Sieve, I think EAI loses (i.e., wins the "Friday
afternoon" prize) on the grounds of low productivity.

   john

---

From: Cyrus Daboo <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:50:15 -0400

Hi John,

> Friday afternoon one if Sieve can survive Friday afternoon.

I've posted a note to the SIEVE mailing list to ask people whether a switch 
to Friday would work. Personally, I am already booked to stay through 
Friday night, so it is not a big deal for me.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

---

From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:53:43 +0100

Alexey Melnikov wrote:

> =JeffH wrote:
>
>> Thanks for all the work put into the agenda -- it's a big job and 
>> much appreciated.
>>
>> nominally in the Sec area. Please, let's see what we can do to move 
>> it around (within the first say 3 days of the week?) but not have it 
> I can recommend swapping fedauth (9:00 on Monday) with krb-wg (17:40 
> on Monday). Fedauth requested 2 hours (currently in 2.5 hours slot) 
> and krb-wg requested 1.5 hours (currently in 2 hour slot).

Never mind that, Tim/Sean proposed another (3-way) exchange and I am Ok 
with it.

---

From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:29:41 +0100

Cyrus Daboo wrote:

> I've posted a note to the SIEVE mailing list to ask people whether a 
> switch to Friday would work. Personally, I am already booked to stay 
> through Friday night, so it is not a big deal for me.

Assuming there is no [much] negative feedback, let's do that. (I.e. HYBI 
moves to EAI slot, EAI moves to Sieve slot, Sieve moves to HYBI slot.) 
There are other advantages of keeping PRECIS and EAI on the same day.

---

From: "Glen Zorn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 13:25:16 +0700

> Never mind that, Tim/Sean proposed another (3-way) exchange and I am Ok

Actually, the first suggestion might work better: it 's looking like hokey
could get by w/1 hour...

---

From: Alexey Melnikov <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 22:44:40 +0100

After talking to Peter we decided to live Hybi where it is.