Subject: microphones (was Re: Here we are...)

From: "George, Wes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:55:35 -0400

>On 2014-7-23, at 14:04, Tim Chown <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> I’ve spoken at other events where you get a neck/ear mic which
>>basically clips on so it’s always just to the side of your mouth,
>>whether you turn or not, so the audio pickup is much more consistent. I
>>don’t know how easy or expensive these are, but they could help in these
>>situations.

I think you're referring to a mic typically called a countryman, usually
these are a plug-in swap for many types of lapel mics (if the belt pack
has a standardized mic cable connector) and based on a quick scan run ~300
USD apiece - we did this swap with the lavaliers at the church where I
help to manage the PA system, and it does improve the consistency of the
pickup. However, they are typically not intended to be shared among
speakers, given that they are in much more direct contact with people's
bodies when compared with a lapel mic clipped to an article of clothing.
It sits behind your ear, runs down your cheek, and may or may not be
directly in contact with the side of your mouth such that the foam pop
filter might harbor all sorts of "fun" stuff. I can see that being a bit
off-putting for those trying to reasonably limit exposure to new and
interesting germs.
So as I said at the mic last night, I really think regular handheld mics
are the way to go.

Wes George

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---

From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:00:36 -0400

> So as I said at the mic last night, I really think regular handheld mics

Actually we did this in the trill meeting Monday morning due to a problem with the lavalier, and the speaker still faded in and out as he turned toward the slide presentation and back toward the audience.

Your point about sanitary use of these microphones is definitely valid, but I don't think they are all created equal, so it may be that there is a middle ground here.

---

From: Brian Haberman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:07:51 -0400

On 7/24/14 11:00 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
>> So as I said at the mic last night, I really think regular handheld
>> mics are the way to go.
> 
> Actually we did this in the trill meeting Monday morning due to a
> problem with the lavalier, and the speaker still faded in and out as
> he turned toward the slide presentation and back toward the
> audience.
> 
> Your point about sanitary use of these microphones is definitely
> valid, but I don't think they are all created equal, so it may be
> that there is a middle ground here.
> 

Do we have sufficient staff for boom mikes? :)

http://www.7cis.com/contents/media/mic_sus_7.jpg

---

From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 16:16:27 +0100

> So as I said at the mic last night, I really think regular handheld mics

Fair point - indeed usually each speaker in a session is ‘pre-wired’ with the ‘countryman’ device, so we’d need a lot of them…

Tim

---

From: "George, Wes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 11:29:46 -0400

On 7/24/14, 11:00 AM, "Ted Lemon" <[email-masked]> wrote:

>Actually we did this in the trill meeting Monday morning due to a problem
>with the lavalier, and the speaker still faded in and out as he turned
>toward the slide presentation and back toward the audience.

Indeed, but I think that's a more easily correctible user error than the
ones we fight on lavalier placement.

Or to jump to a related idea - having a display of the slides in *front*
of the speaker, whether it's the chair laptop, their own laptop, or a
dedicated monitor, would go a long way to prevent speakers with their
backs to the room and facing away from the mic as they stare at their
slides on the projector screen.

Wes George

---

From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 13:13:00 -0400

> Do we have sufficient staff for boom mikes? :)

We could solicit volunteers.   That would certainly be more fun than current practice!

---

From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 13:17:10 -0400

> slides on the projector screen.

I think this would be a better choice, although I get the impression from something Alexa said yesterday that it might be an expensive approach.   I do not think that the turn-to-the-side problem is solvable in practice, because it requires training speakers, and thus far I have seen no evidence that speakers are trainable.

---

From: Samuel Weiler <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 13:45:35 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 24 Jul 2014, Ted Lemon wrote:

> I do not think that the turn-to-the-side problem is solvable in 
> practice, because it requires training speakers, and thus far I have 
> seen no evidence that speakers are trainable.

Speakers may not be trainable, but chairs could be more selective in whom 
they choose to lead WG discussions.

More constructively: I like both the idea for red cards and the idea of 
switching to handhelds.  Perhaps those could be "experiments" at IETF91.

I have personal experience using headset microphones such as the 
countryman.  I love them for certain applications, but I don't think 
they're a good idea for our use case - they take some getting-used-to, and 
swapping them between speakers will probably be slow.

-- Sam

---

From: "Bradner, Scott" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 17:48:15 +0000

fwiw - I was referring to hand mics not headset mics from the front table last night

Scott

On Jul 24, 2014, at 1:45 PM, Samuel Weiler <[email-masked]> wrote:

>> I do not think that the turn-to-the-side problem is solvable in practice, because it requires training speakers, and thus far I have seen no evidence that speakers are trainable.
> 
> Speakers may not be trainable, but chairs could be more selective in whom they choose to lead WG discussions.
> 
> More constructively: I like both the idea for red cards and the idea of switching to handhelds.  Perhaps those could be "experiments" at IETF91.
> 
> I have personal experience using headset microphones such as the countryman.  I love them for certain applications, but I don't think they're a good idea for our use case - they take some getting-used-to, and swapping them between speakers will probably be slow.
> 
> -- Sam
>

---

From: Lee Howard <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 14:25:37 -0400

On 7/24/14 1:17 PM, "Ted Lemon" <[email-masked]> wrote:

>I think this would be a better choice, although I get the impression from
>something Alexa said yesterday that it might be an expensive approach.
>I do not think that the turn-to-the-side problem is solvable in practice,
>because it requires training speakers, and thus far I have seen no
>evidence that speakers are trainable.

Since slides are being driven from a WG Chair's laptop, simply placing
that laptop between the presenter and the audience might do it.  Except
when they turn to point.

It has occurred to me that we could offer a "How to present your draft"
tutorial, including font sizes, talking speed, goals of the presentation,
and how to use a mike, would be wonderful, but probably not accomplish all
that much.

Lee

---

From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 14:38:42 -0500

> and how to use a mike, would be wonderful, but probably not accomplish all

Perhaps I'm being grumpy, but it seems to me that this IETF has plumbed new
depths of inaudible mike usage and tiny font usage.

Accordingly, if you think such a tutorial would make ANY improvement,
please suggest such a thing to the EDU team!

Grouchily,

Spencer

---

From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 19:43:17 +0000

It is not just inaudible mic usage.

It is new depths of incompetent mic usage, poor speaker etiquette at the mic lines, etc.

Yes, part of the newcomers edu should include some of these things. Then we just need to work on all those who have been here so long they are WG chairs.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: WGChairs [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf 
> Of Spencer Dawkins at IETF
> Sent: 24 July 2014 20:39
> To: Lee Howard
> Cc: WG Chairs
> Subject: Re: microphones (was Re: Here we are...)
> 
> 
> > >On Jul 24, 2014, at 11:29 AM, George, Wes 
> <[email-masked]>
> > >wrote:
> > >> Or to jump to a related idea - having a display of the slides in 
> > >> *front* of the speaker, whether it's the chair laptop, their own 
> > >> laptop, or a dedicated monitor, would go a long way to prevent 
> > >> speakers with their backs to the room and facing away 
> from the mic 
> > >> as they stare at their slides on the projector screen.
> > >
> > >I think this would be a better choice, although I get the 
> impression 
> > >from something Alexa said yesterday that it might be an 
> expensive approach.
> > that laptop between the presenter and the audience might do it.  
> > Except when they turn to point.
> >
> > tutorial, including font sizes, talking speed, goals of the 
> > presentation, and how to use a mike, would be wonderful, 
> but probably 
> > not accomplish all that much.
> 
> Perhaps I'm being grumpy, but it seems to me that this IETF 
> has plumbed new depths of inaudible mike usage and tiny font usage. 
> 
> Accordingly, if you think such a tutorial would make ANY 
> improvement, please suggest such a thing to the EDU team!
> 
> Grouchily,
> 
> Spencer
> 
> >
> > Lee
> >
> >
> 
> 
>

---

From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:23:54 -0400

________________________________________
From: WGChairs [[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Lee Howard [[email-masked]]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 2:25 PM
To: 
...
>that laptop between the presenter and the audience might do it.  Except

That's what we did today at 1 PM, and it worked pretty well.
Fortunately I had read the suggestion for the heads-up display
and just said, "Use my Laptop".  

Some speakers tried to walk away, but we pulled them back to the chair's table,
When it came to pointing, they used my mouse for the pointer.
No extra expense, but you need enough space behind the chair's table
to accommodate everyone, and chair's view of the slides on laptop was not optimum.

Al

---

From: Suzanne Woolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:34:32 -0400

> and how to use a mike, would be wonderful, but probably not accomplish all

I admit I'm still learning how to run meetings with the IETF tools, so I *know* my meeting management wasn't what it should be.

Re: the logistics, it's not impossible that a series of checklists for chairs would help, including things to pass along to presenters and things to be sure they've done themselves.

This meeting has seemed harder than some others particularly for weird audio issues in big empty rooms. Today I saw a couple of minutes spent figuring out that the mics in the room and the presenter's speakers needed to be muted to prevent echoes in a remote presentation, which otherwise worked fine. The placement of tables, presenters, screens, and mics has felt awkward in many meetings for the reasons discussed here. I seem when I'm scribing to have had more trouble than usual getting speakers to say their names and speak clearly at the mics. And so on. 

I realized 15 minutes into the meeting I ran (2nd as a chair) that a checklist would have helped a lot. If anyone has a good one of logistics prep and real-time meeting management tasks for chairs, I'll love you forever if you post it to the wiki and I'll happily help expand/improve it. If no one has done such a thing yet, it might be time-- I'll get something started after I've gotten some sleep.

And, thanks to all the folks I've asked for advice and feedback-- you've not only provided it but been gentler than I deserve :)

best,
Suzanne

---

From: Lee Howard <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 20:52:14 -0400

On 7/24/14 6:34 PM, "Suzanne Woolf" <[email-masked]> wrote:

>>presentation,

Okay, I have proposed this to the EDU team.  I would like review from
non-native English speakers, to make sure we include things that are
actually helpful to them.

>
>I admit I'm still learning how to run meetings with the IETF tools, so I
>*know* my meeting management wasn't what it should be.

It's easier with a co-chair like mine.  :-)

>
>Re: the logistics, it's not impossible that a series of checklists for
>chairs would help, including things to pass along to presenters and
>things to be sure they've done themselves.

Off the top of my head, because I've been thinking the same thing. . .

1 month before IETF: Reminder of deadline for draft submission.  And that
on-list discussion is strongly desired to justify a spot on the agenda, so
sooner is better.
1 month before IETF: Book flight, book hotel, register IETF, register
social.
1 week before deadline: Reminder of deadline, call for agenda items
2 weeks before meeting: discuss with co-chair, post draft agenda
1 week before meeting: request slides.  Send email to each
[email-masked] [1]
Day 0 of meeting: Make sure all slides are in.  Pester laggards.
Day 0 of meeting: upload slides using Materials Upload tool off agenda page
Day 1 of meeting: Repeat, until all slides are in.
Day 1 of meeting: As you bump into WG participants, ask if they'll be note
taker or jabber scribe
During meeting:  note disposition of each draft.  [2]
After meeting: Collect notes from note-taker, post using Materials Upload
2 Days after meeting: File expense report

[1] New draft: describe your idea in just enough detail to get people to
want to read the draft.
    Revised draft: 1-2 slide reminder of what the draft is, followed by
slides with discussion topic areas
    Mature draft: 1 slide reminder of abstract, couple slides any major
changes, list any open questions for discussion
[2] I take detailed notes, but that's just me.

>
>This meeting has seemed harder than some others particularly for weird
>audio issues in big empty rooms. Today I saw a couple of minutes spent
>figuring out that the mics in the room and the presenter's speakers
>needed to be muted to prevent echoes in a remote presentation, which
>otherwise worked fine. The placement of tables, presenters, screens, and
>mics has felt awkward in many meetings for the reasons discussed here. I
>seem when I'm scribing to have had more trouble than usual getting
>speakers to say their names and speak clearly at the mics. And so on.
>
>I realized 15 minutes into the meeting I ran (2nd as a chair) that a
>checklist would have helped a lot. If anyone has a good one of logistics
>prep and real-time meeting management tasks for chairs, I'll love you
>forever if you post it to the wiki and I'll happily help expand/improve
>it. If no one has done such a thing yet, it might be time-- I'll get
>something started after I've gotten some sleep.

Put the above in the wiki, and we'll expand on it.

>
>And, thanks to all the folks I've asked for advice and feedback-- you've
>not only provided it but been gentler than I deserve :)
>
>
>best,
>Suzanne

Lee

---

From: Brian E Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2014 00:30:12 +1200

Nice list. Some comments below:

On 25/07/2014 12:52, Lee Howard wrote:
...

> 1 month before IETF: Book flight, book hotel, register IETF, register

That's 3 months too late for many of us to book flights at reasonable
fares.

> 1 week before deadline: Reminder of deadline, call for agenda items

I think the first call for agenda items should be a month out, and
this should be the final call.

> [email-masked] [1]

I think that should be the second call for slides; the first call
should be simultaneous with the draft agenda.

> Day 0 of meeting: Make sure all slides are in.  Pester laggards.

If you're meeting on Monday most speakers will be travelling on
the weekend, so then I think you need to pester on the preceding
Thursday or Friday (depending on who's in which time zone).

> Day 1 of meeting: As you bump into WG participants, ask if they'll be note

You can usefully start that on the list the previous week, especially if
meeting on Monday.

> After meeting: Collect notes from note-taker, post using Materials Upload

...and preferably edit (after comments) to produce narrative minutes
with conclusions, rather than he said/she said.

> 2 Days after meeting: File expense report

& maybe post a follow-up actions note to the list

> [2] I take detailed notes, but that's just me.

   Brian

---

From: Alia Atlas <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 09:38:45 -0400

I would recommend leaving time for the Chairs to review the submitted
slides,
send back comments, receive an updated set, and repeat.

I think that this, done well, can have a very positive effect on focusing
the discussions
and preventing 40+ slides attempted in a 10 minute slot.  Even I can't talk
that fast ;-)

Alia

---

From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 08:44:11 -0500

slides,
the discussions
> and preventing 40+ slides attempted in a 10 minute slot.  Even I can't
talk that fast ;-)

I've caught a couple of overly long presentations as chair myself. Yes,
please!

---

From: Lee Howard <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 09:59:14 -0400

I tried to create a new page on the wiki, and I tried to edit this
existing page, and failed both.  The page kept requesting my login
credentials, which I reset twice, but still no luck.  So, for somebody who
is able to add/edit wiki pages:

= Meeting Checklist for WG Chairs =

* 1-4 months before IETF: Book flight, book hotel, register for IETF,
register for social.

* 1 month before deadline: "The deadline for submitting drafts is
approaching (see http://www.ietf.org/meeting/important-dates-2014.html).
If you have an item for discussion at the meeting, it is most useful if
there has been discussion on the mailing list, so submit your document
now. Please also let the WG chairs know that you want time on the agenda."

* 1 month before IETF: Reminder of deadline, last call for agenda items

* 2 weeks before meeting: discuss with co-chair, post draft agenda, notify
WG list that agenda is posted, and request slides from presenters.

* 1 week before meeting: Send email to each [email-masked]
requesting slides [1]

* 2 Days before meeting: Make sure all slides are in. Review slides for
appropriate focus and length for time slot. Pester laggards.

* Day 0 of meeting: upload slides using Materials Upload tool off agenda
page

* Day 1 of meeting: Repeat, until all slides are in.

* Day 1 of meeting: As you bump into WG participants, ask if they'll be
note taker or jabber scribe

* During meeting:  note disposition of each draft.  [2]

* Day of meeting: Collect notes from note-taker, edit to produce narrative
with conclusions, post using Materials Upload

* 2 Days after meeting: File expense report

* 2 Days post a follow-up actions note to the list

[1]
  * New draft: describe your idea in just enough detail to get people to
want to read the draft.
  * Revised draft: 1-2 slide reminder of what the draft is, followed by
slides with discussion topic areas
  * Mature draft: 1 slide reminder of abstract, couple slides any major
changes, list any open questions for discussion

Lee

From:  Alia Atlas <[email-masked]>
Date:  Friday, July 25, 2014 9:38 AM
To:  Brian Carpenter <[email-masked]>
Cc:  Lee Howard <[email-masked]>, "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Subject:  Re: [BOFChairs] microphones (was Re: Here we are...)

>slides,send back comments, receive an updated set, and repeat.
>
>On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Brian E Carpenter
><[email-masked]> wrote:
>

---

From: Suzanne Woolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 10:16:53 -0400

> Put the above in the wiki, and we'll expand on it.

Done. There's a couple of lines of text now on the chairs' wiki base page, the topic is "Holding effective WG meetings"-- it was already in "Topics to Add" at the bottom of the page, so I moved it to the body and added a few words. It has a pointer to the rudimentary checklist document I created from Lee's email. It needs more words and prettier formatting.

Suzanne

---

From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 15:32:30 +0000

> * Day 0 of meeting: upload slides using Materials Upload tool off agenda

I would actually try to accomplish that a few days earlier, for those that can and want to download them. I generally ask for slides to arrive by Saturday regardless of the day we will be meeting, with a view to uploading slides that day if possible or possibly Sunday.

---

From: Spencer Dawkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 12:08:04 -0400

> I would actually try to accomplish that a few days earlier, for those that can and want to download them. I generally ask for slides to arrive by Saturday regardless of the day we will be meeting,…

Thank you, Fred, for making this point.

When I was uploading meeting materials more often, I heard from folks in 
my working groups who were downloading slides and 
translating/summarizing them for co-workers before working group 
sessions, so this is especially helpful for English-as-a-Second-Language 
IETF participants.

Spencer