Subject: FYI: WG secretaries are not on the various <wg>-chairs email aliases

From: Alia Atlas <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 09:50:11 -0500

Just FYI, I learned that the WG secretaries are not on the various
FOO-chairs email aliases, and it
seems to be a universal setting. It seems to have become an issue with the
change over from @tools.ietf.org to @ietf.org.

The Secretariat has referred this to the tools team and they are looking
into the issue.

Please be aware of this when considering communications.

Regards,
Alia

---

From: Loa Andersson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:21:18 +0800

Alia,

I had a short discussion with Robert about this just prior Yokohmama. We 
could see that we don't want a default where the wg-secretaries are
included in the wg-chair mail-alias.

The way the mail-alias is generated it makes it a bit awkward to do it
per secretary/wg.

However there is a concept of "delegate", a delegate have the authority
to do "chair-things" in the data-tracker. Robert promised to look if
would be possible to include delegates in the wg-chair alias and if it
has any unwanted effects.

I've not heard back from Robert, but this could be a way of handling the
secretaries and the chair-alias.

/Loa

On 2015-12-04 22:50, Alia Atlas wrote:
> change over from @tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org/> to @ietf.org
> <http://ietf.org/>.
>

---

From: Donald Eastlake <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 10:17:08 -0500

Why don't you want secretaries included? They were included by default and
I think that should continue to be the case.

Thanks,
Donald (secretary of TRILL and presumably getting wgchairs mail only
because I also happen to be a co-chair of CALEXT)
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 [email-masked]

---

From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 10:23:05 -0500

Loa,

I agree with Donald, I can’t think of any reason to not include WG
secretaries.

Cheers,
Andy

---

From: Jeff Tantsura <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:39:02 +0000

Hi,

While in rtgwg we don't have secretaries (yet) - In my opinion they should be included in all aspects of wg-chairs business.

Regards,
Jeff

On Dec 6, 2015, at 7:23 AM, Andrew G. Malis <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:

Loa,

I agree with Donald, I can’t think of any reason to not include WG secretaries.

Cheers,
Andy

On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Donald Eastlake <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
Why don't you want secretaries included? They were included by default and I think that should continue to be the case.

Thanks,
Donald (secretary of TRILL and presumably getting wgchairs mail only because I also happen to be a co-chair of CALEXT)
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270<tel:%2B1-508-333-2270> (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>

On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 4:21 AM, Loa Andersson <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
Alia,

I had a short discussion with Robert about this just prior Yokohmama. We could see that we don't want a default where the wg-secretaries are
included in the wg-chair mail-alias.

/Loa

change over from @tools.ietf.org<http://tools.ietf.org> <http://tools.ietf.org/> to @ietf.org<http://ietf.org>
<http://ietf.org/>.

Regards,
Alia

---

From: Loa Andersson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 17:12:53 +0800

Andy and Donals,

????

Who said I do not want secretaries on the wg-chair mail-alias?
I talked to Robert just because I wanted to include the mpls-secretary
in the mpls-chairs mail-alias.

I learnt that it was not as easy as I hoped, and Robert and I talked
a bit about one way of doing it.

Having said that I think that the chairs per group should have the
mandate whether secretaries are included in their alias or not.

I don't have an opinion on whether the secretary for the foo wg
should be on that mail-alias or not.

I believe that there are pros and cons, but that there are more to
be gained having the secretaries included.

The obvious pro is that dissemination of information is quicker and
surer. The obvious con is that it is no longer intuitive who a mail
will reach.

Are we talking about the "wg-chairs" alias, I definitely believe that
secretaries should be included.

/Loa

On 2015-12-06 23:23, Andrew G. Malis wrote:
>     Why don't you want secretaries included? They were included by
>     default and I think that should continue to be the case.
>
>     Thanks,
>       Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 <tel:%2B1-508-333-2270> (cell)
>     [email-masked] <mailto:[email-masked]>
>
>         I had a short discussion with Robert about this just prior
>         Yokohmama. We could see that we don't want a default where the
>         wg-secretaries are
>             change over from @tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org>
>             <http://tools.ietf.org/> to @ietf.org <http://ietf.org>
>             <http://ietf.org/>.
>

---

From: Martin Vigoureux <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 10:58:32 +0100

This topic was discussed back in 2013.
At that time there were proposals to have two aliases:
<wg>-chairs
and
<wg>-admin

Only the latter one would include the secretary.

-m

---

From: "Marc Blanchet" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 07:57:51 -0500

> Only the latter one would include the secretary.

I would highly prefer that proposal, since wgname-chairs seems to mean 
« chairs »…

marc.

>>>      The way the mail-alias is generated it makes it a bit awkward 
>>> to
>>>      do it
>>>      per secretary/wg.
>>>
>>>      would be possible to include delegates in the wg-chair alias 
>>> and
>>>      if it
>>>          The Secretariat has referred this to the tools team and 
>>> they
>>>          are looking
>>>          into the issue.
>>>

---

From: Donald Eastlake <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 09:57:40 -0500

HI Loa,

Maybe you left out a "not" or something but you said "We could see that we
don't want a default where the wg-secretaries are
included in the wg-chair mail-alias."

Thanks,
Donald

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 17:17:00 +0100

Hi All,

FWIW, secretaries were included in the <wgacronym>-chairs aliases
during the last year (approximately) they lived on tools.ietf.org.
It's a but in the transfer that the new code in the datatracker has
not included them.  I have committed code to do so, to be deployed
in the next datatracker release.  In order _not_ to do so, I need
a clear statement that we shouldn't do it.

Best regards,

	Henrik

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 17:17:15 +0100

Hi All,

Best regards,

	Henrik

---

From: joel jaeggli <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 08:23:43 -0800

> a clear statement that we shouldn't do it.

re-instating  the old behavior seems fine by me.

---

From: "Andrew G. Malis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 11:38:51 -0500

Henrik,

Thanks, we also want to make sure that they’re included in <area>-
[email-masked], such as [email-masked]. Noticing that they were NOT
in rtg-chairs is what started this in the first place.

Cheers,
Andy

---

From: Laurent Ciavaglia <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 17:36:28 +0100

Hello All,

A WG participant may wish to discuss a non-administrative topic with the 
WG chairs, and only with them.
Having the WG secretaries as default recipients, even if they remain 
neutral/non-participative to the exchange, might refrain the WG 
participant to use the wg-chairs alias (and instead contact them via p2p 
emails).

Best regards, Laurent.

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Secure Cloud Networking

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: [email-masked] 
<mailto:[email-masked]>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 18:58:26 +0100

Hi Andy,

> in rtg-chairs is what started this in the first place.

Yes, they are included in the <area>-chairs alias too, now.

Best regards,

	Henrik

---

From: "Susan Hares" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 22:44:14 -0500

+1 – including the WG secretaries is a good idea!

Sue 

From: WGChairs [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Andrew G. Malis
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 10:23 AM
To: Donald Eastlake
Cc: [email-masked]; Robert Sparks
Subject: Re: FYI: WG secretaries are not on the various <wg>-chairs email aliases

Loa,

Cheers,

Andy

Thanks,

Alia,

/Loa

Regards,
Alia