Subject: Meetecho suggestion for IETF-96 and beyond

From: "Derek Atkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:38:36 -0400

After spending the week trying to attend several WGs remotely this week, I
have a couple things to say about it.

First, thank you.  When the system worked, it worked well and I felt like
I was almost in the room.  Also, a big Thank You also to the volunteers
who channelled from jabber to the mic.

However I do have a few suggestions for next time.

My biggest beef was that I couldn't sign into the meetecho room until
exactly when the meeting started.  But there was ALWAYS a delay to getting
in, with all the page refreshes, having to login, copy-and-paste in my
reg#, upload images, waiting for my browser to ask me to share my camera
and mic, etc.  So for a 0900 meeting I usually couldn't get in until about
0903-0905, often missing the introduction and sometimes even the agenda. 
I would recommend you allow attendees to join the room up to 5 minutes
prior to the actual meeting start.  E.g. for a 0900 meeting, allow sign-in
to start at 0855.

Similarly, at the end of the meeting there were times when the meeting ran
long, or there was additional conversation going on.  But meetecho ended
precisely when the meeting was scheduled to end.  I feel this was also a
disservice and there should be some leeway at the end of the meeting. 
E.g. if a meeting is scheduled to end at 1130, let the stream go to say
1135 or 1145, or several minutes after the meeting actually ends (even if
it's before or after the official end).

Also, when there is a network transmission error, it could be nice to just
refresh one stream instead of having to refresh the whole page (which
would often require logging in again, killing the audio stream in the
process).

I'm happy to provide any other comments offline (or online) if you have
questions.

Thanks,

-derek

-- 
       Derek Atkins                 617-623-3745
       [email-masked]             www.ihtfp.com
       Computer and Internet Security Consultant

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From: Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 15:58:08 -0400

> prior to the actual meeting start.  E.g. for a 0900 meeting, allow sign-in

+1

I think meetecho was letting people in a little early, but maybe I was 
just later than I thought.

Ideally it would keep the session up until the next meeting starts, 
While still allowing people to enter the next session early. But I 
expect the conflict over the media would present a problem with that.

(This is just like the f2f situation, with one session running late 
while people for the next session are pushing in and starting to set up.)

(Lower priority:) I would also like the option to be connected to more 
than one concurrent session, and so be able to monitor them both. This 
would require being able to flip control of local media resources 
between the two. I expect it is hard, but would be valuable.

	Thanks,
	Paul

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From: "Derek Atkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:05:51 -0400

Paul,

> between the two. I expect it is hard, but would be valuable.

You can do this now.  I did it Wednesday with OAuth and OpenPGP using
Firefox-45 on Fedora Linux (F23).  It just blended the audio, which
sometimes made it hard to follow when people were speaking in both rooms,
but there is actually an awful lot of silence between sentences so
surprisingly it was easier than I expected to mentally split the streams.

-derek

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From: Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 16:36:20 -0400

> surprisingly it was easier than I expected to mentally split the streams.

Wow. I wouldn't have expected that to work.

Of course it might be a problem if you want to talk in one of the 
sessions. (Especially if you want to talk in *both* of them.)

	Thanks,
	Paul

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From: "HANSEN, TONY L" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 22:43:45 +0000

I suggest that dicussion of enhancements to meetecho and other virtual meeting tools at least cc the [email-masked] mailing list.

	Tony

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From: "HANSEN, TONY L" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 22:44:08 +0000

There were some times I would have liked to be able to mute the audio in a session.

	Tony

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From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 01:40:31 -0400

First I'd like to say that the experience was certainly improved from
meetings past! I do have a couple suggestions for improving things even
further as well.

1) Turn off the camera [option?] when not needed. Staring the entire
time at the green camera on light, and the live video window with the
"not being published" text, I kept wishing I could turn the "big
brother" camera off until it was needed.

2) Perhaps an "I see you" indicator by the chair and/or some form of
ability to draw attention to the remote queue, beyond just queuing up.
Not sure best way to to do this, perhaps a small "mutable" flash or beep
option on the meetecho controller view, or maybe better a small person
at a mic graphic overlay on the bottom corner of the presentation
(i.e., like the cable TV logos)? There were at least a couple different
WGs where I queued up and the chairs unintentionally took a very long
time to notice. On the other hand I believe the chairs or the presenter,
would not have failed to notice someone standing at the mic. It was
obvious they were not intentionally doing this given that when they did
notice they "called" on me, asking the presenter to pause during their
presentation. This was one example where I definitely felt the
remoteness compared to being there in person. In person if I hadn't been
called by the presenter or chairs after during the appropriate time, I
would have sat back down. Remotely I felt frustrated as the appropriate
time to ask my clarifying question passed on by...

3) Slop time. Please allow for logging into the room before the actual
start time, as well as staying after.

4) Not having to sign the blue sheets at every entry to the group. More
than once I had to quit my browser and rejoin (or close the tab and rejoin,
etc), I noticed other people mentioning doing similar in the chat rooms.
It would be very nice not to be asked to sign the virtual blue sheets
each time I had to do this. If I already signed the blue sheet for that room
and I clicked "remember me" then it shouldn't ask me to fill anything out
again (name, reg number, note well click) just take be back to the room.

5) Switch from participant to observer. It seems like one could go the
other direction, but not return. My want for this feature though may be
mostly be driven by the want for #1 above. :)

6) Swap presentation and speaker video. Many times near the start of a
presentation I wanted to get a good look at the speaker then switch back
to the presentation. An option to swap the views would have worked
nicely for this.

Thanks again!
Chris.

---

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2016 21:00:32 -0400

> surprisingly it was easier than I expected to mentally split the

I also did this.
Just use the audio button to stop the audio from one session.
A mute/unmute button would make it easier; I thought my browser would let me
control the audio directly with a right click on the tab, but that didn't
work. Maybe that's a plugin I once had.

After doing the mute, you have to click on the podium icon to get the
presentation and video back. I only did for two concurrent sessions (dnsop
and core), and I had 1/3 screen size windows (on dual monitors), and I could
probably have handled three easily.

Life would be easier if I could get alerted when we get to the question phase
:-)

--
Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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From: Mary Barnes <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 04:08:56 -0500

As far as the start time for Meetecho ISTM that it was around just 5
minutes before.  Since I was a chair attending remotely I was trying to
join 15 minutes early, so maybe it ought to be around 10 minutes prior and
10 minutes after.

One suggestion I would like to make to chairs is to be more conscious of
remote participants when calling for a hum or switching topics as it takes
longer for a remote participant to provide feedback or indicate comments.

Regards,
Mary.

On Friday, April 8, 2016, Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Ideally it would keep the session up until the next meeting starts, While
> still allowing people to enter the next session early. But I expect the
> conflict over the media would present a problem with that.
>
> (This is just like the f2f situation, with one session running late while
> people for the next session are pushing in and starting to set up.)
>
> would require being able to flip control of local media resources between
> the two. I expect it is hard, but would be valuable.
>
>         Thanks,
>         Paul
>
>

-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile

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From: Adam Roach <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 09:35:50 -0300

> There were some times I would have liked to be able to mute the audio in a session.

In Firefox, whenever a page is making any sound, there will be speaker 
icon in the corresponding tab. You can click on the speaker icon to mute 
that tab (and click again to unmute). I suspect that Chrome may have a 
similar affordance for muting individual tabs.

/a

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From: Meetecho IETF support <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 19:16:49 +0200

> similar affordance for muting individual tabs.

Right. And you can also mute the audio from within the Meetecho UI: the 
"Alternative links" button (see 
http://ietf95.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Remote_Participation#iconography), 
besides offering alternative audio streams (rtsp, rtmp, html5), also 
allows to pause/unpause the WebRTC audio. We will document this more 
clearly.

Cheers,
the Meetecho team

>
> /a
>
> _______________________________________________
> NOTE WELL: This list operates according to
> http://mipassoc.org/dkim/ietf-list-rules.html.
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vmeet

---

From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2016 07:01:31 -0700

> similar affordance for muting individual tabs.

I'd never noticed that before, but tripped across it a day or two ago.

Quite nice!

d/

-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net

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From: Derek Atkins <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:54:11 -0400

Mary Barnes <[email-masked]> writes:

> As far as the start time for Meetecho ISTM that it was around just 5 minutes
> before.  Since I was a chair attending remotely I was trying to join 15
> minutes early, so maybe it ought to be around 10 minutes prior and 10 minutes
> after.  

Hmm.  This early-slack did not appear to work for me.  I was not allowed
to join a 0900 meeting until 0900.  I tried several times in different
meetings thoughout the week and at no time would it allow me to login
prior to the actual meeting start time.

+1

-derek

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From: Antoin Verschuren <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:18:09 +0200

+1

I often found myself looking at a one slide presentation for a discussion, when the discussion or demonstration of the speaker was the actual thing to watch.
I tried to enlarge the tiny speaker video, but failed.

- --
Antoin Verschuren

Tweevoren 6, 5672 SB Nuenen, NL
M: +31 6 37682392

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From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:20:49 -0400

> icon in the corresponding tab. You can click on the speaker icon to
    > mute that tab (and click again to unmute). I suspect that Chrome may
    > have a similar affordance for muting individual tabs.

It puts a speaker/camera icon in the tab, yes.
I seemed to remember a way to mute, but maybe that was ff.

Chrome didn't let me mute, but I could run meetecho in multiple tabs, and use
the meetecho stop-audio button.

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From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 10:56:20 -0500

First of all, congratulations to the Meetecho team for doing
what they are doing.  It is awesome!

Second, in the spirit of providing feedback to Meetecho to render
a better experience for remote audiences, one aspect I find could be
improved upon is the use of laser pointers.

Laser pointers are for people present in the room.  To remote
audiences, they don't impart the same context as to those in the room
for reasons that are obvious.

Asking the presenter to use a mouse to point is not a viable option.
However, I wonder if it is possible to manually mirror the laser with
the mouse pointer, which may be better captured by the Meetecho screen
capture program?  I suspect that the screen from which Meetecho
captures the slides is the one where the mouse movement could also be
captured.

I don't know whether or not this is feasible, but it would certainly
be good to have.

Cheers,

- vijay
-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Nokia Networks
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60563 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / [email-masked]
Web: http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/  | Calendar: http://goo.gl/x3Ogq