Subject: meetecho recordings and slide presentation anti-pattern

From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 22:33:29 -0400

I am watching youtube recordings for WGs that I had in conflict.
here is a screenshot of it:
  http://www.sandelman.ca/tmp/mcrcapture/2790.2020-08-13/capture1.png

It's nice to have the IETF108 and Ericsson logo.  But, none of the
who is speaking info is present.  It could go up there next to the logo, or
next to the WG name.
Notice what proportion of the video window is used for the slide itself.
Meetecho has a border. Then PPT has a tool bar. And a slide finder on the left.
No matter how big I make it on my screen, I can't read it easily, because not
enough pixel detail was captured.

Of course, the ideal solution is that meetecho protect the PDF itself, but we
don't have that yet, and this advice applies to zoom, webex, jitsi, whereby
as well.

Why are we getting this pathology?  because of powerpoint pathologies.
People are learning now to go into slide mode, because that takes over an
entire screen.  They are learning to not go into slide mode at all, but to
project just the application window.  But, a bunch of people are using
browsers that either do a tab, or the entire screen only.

Given current limitations what should you do:
  1) print to PDF. Upload that.  If you have animations, there are ways of
     dealing.
  2) use simplest PDF viewer possible. Browser is good, but can be annoying
     to get it full screen, etc. as we have learned with the chair-table
     chromebooks.
  3) size the PDF window to about 1024x768 (thinking fondly of 1999, when the
     Internet was best viewed in that size).  That's enough pixels but not
     too many. Sending fewer pixels allows each of them to take up more space
     on the target viewer's screen, and means they don't have zoom.
     Also, if your slides look like crap at that resolution, then fix the slides.

Will this help for IETF108? Obviously not. I will go get the slide PDF and
view them directly.  Will this help future virtual interims? I hope so.

I did make a screen shot of my setup when co-chairing ASDF. I was going to
label all the windows and why they are positioning where they are, but I
thought it was a waste of time.  I could do that if there is interest.

--
Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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From: Tim Chown <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:06:55 +0100

> On 14 Aug 2020, at 03:33, Michael Richardson <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 

I think MeetEcho is 85-90% there.  One of its few shortcomings, maybe the biggest one, is that you do not know who is speaking, so I’d agree exploring ways to improve that would be helpful.  Adding a link under that to the deck being spoken to would also be useful, or just to the Materials area for the current session.

Also it was rare for people to say who they were at the virtual mic.  While I think that info is there from looking into the queue, it’s a distraction to go and look while taking notes or minutes when someone could spend 5 seconds saying their name.  

Tim

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From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:50:51 -0400

Tim Chown <[email-masked]> wrote:
    > Also it was rare for people to say who they were at the virtual mic.
    > While I think that info is there from looking into the queue, it’s a
    > distraction to go and look while taking notes or minutes when someone
    > could spend 5 seconds saying their name.

I think that we all assumed that meetecho would tell people.
And if there were few enough people with mic access, it was mostly easy to know.
But, that part of the screen didn't go into the video :-(

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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:34:23 +0000

> I think MeetEcho is 85-90% there.  One of its few shortcomings, maybe the
> biggest one, is that you do not know who is speaking, so I’d agree exploring
> ways to improve that would be helpful.  Adding a link under that to the deck
> being spoken to would also be useful, or just to the Materials area for the
> current session.

+1!!
This is a much-needed feature.
 
> Also it was rare for people to say who they were at the virtual mic.  While I
> think that info is there from looking into the queue, it’s a distraction to go
> and look while taking notes or minutes when someone could spend 5
> seconds saying their name.

And in the absence of the much-needed feature, this would be very helpful.
Barbara

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From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:47:19 +0200

> On 2020-08-17, at 16:34, STARK, BARBARA H <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
>> it’s a distraction to go

I would *expect* (add image of a crowd of IETFers with pitchforks here) that we’ll have that feature (showing the current and previous few speaker names (*)) in whatever we use for IETF109.

Having to say your name at the start of each sentence (or two sentences)

— is a distraction for everyone, not just the note takers
— is a distraction for the speaker as well
— is a duty usually disposed of in a way that is not audible, so it doesn’t even help
— leads to lots of time wasted and additional distractions in chair interactions (“Who are you, John?”)
— serves to make the microphone cycle time longer, instead of the faster cycle times we actually need

This is one of the places where we need to embrace the advantages of going digital.  Never say your name again.

Grüße, Carsten

(*) Yes, accessibility.

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From: Toerless Eckert <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 18:47:56 +0200

Indeed. For icing on top:

- Please add your affiliation to your name in meetecho

- Have the note taking tool automatically insert

  "John Whatever (ACME corp) taking the microphone"

That would make note taking so much easier ;-)

Toerless

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 04:47:19PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> >> it???s a distraction to go
> I would *expect* (add image of a crowd of IETFers with pitchforks here) that we???ll have that feature (showing the current and previous few speaker names (*)) in whatever we use for IETF109.
> 
> ??? is a distraction for everyone, not just the note takers
> ??? is a distraction for the speaker as well
> ??? is a duty usually disposed of in a way that is not audible, so it doesn???t even help
> ??? leads to lots of time wasted and additional distractions in chair interactions (???Who are you, John????)
> ??? serves to make the microphone cycle time longer, instead of the faster cycle times we actually need
> 

-- 
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[email-masked]

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From: Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 12:10:28 -0400

> That would make note taking so much easier ;-)

I thought a fundamental feature of the IETF is that people participate 
as individuals rather than as representatives of some enterprise or 
organization. So why should affiliation be highlighted.

(I cringe when I hear someone say they are speaking for XYZ.)

	Thanks,
	Paul

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From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:10:14 -0400

Chris was maintaining a shopping list/bug list for meetecho.
I have not seen it, nor do I know where to find it.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT architect   [
]     [email-masked]  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [

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From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:34:38 -0700

> On Aug 18, 2020, at 9:10 AM, Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> I thought a fundamental feature of the IETF is that people participate as individuals rather than as representatives of some enterprise or organization. So why should affiliation be highlighted.
> 

I agree. That said, having people say their affiliation often tells me who they talk with, which can inform me on biases.

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From: David Noveck <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:43:04 -0400

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 12:10 PM Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> organization.

True, but people are paid to attend by companies they work for and that
fact is not irrelevant to many people.

So why should affiliation be highlighted.

It should be up to the individual.  I don't highlight it.  It is on my
badge. But I don't put it on slides but it is on RFCs I'm involved with.

> (I cringe when I hear someone say they are speaking for XYZ.)

Unless you're the CEO, you really can't.

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From: Warren Kumari <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 19:06:55 -0400

> organization. So why should affiliation be highlighted.

While people *do* participate as individuals, stating one's
affiliation is (or, has always seemed to me) a way to disclose your
bias and aids is in transparency.

If there is a WG meeting where 8 people all from Acme Tool And Die
arguing for a proposal and 5 people all from Yoyodyne arguing against
the proposal, I know I need to do some more digging into what's
driving this...
So, unless the company is really small, or the person is specifically
speaking *for* a company, I've always viewed the affiliation in terms
of a respectful full disclosure, not a "this is the company line".

W

-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf

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From: Dick Hardt <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:22:10 -0700

FYI: Apple's Keynote let's you present in a window rather than a full
screen.

Play | Play Slideshow in Window
ᐧ

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From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:47:44 -0400

> FYI: Apple's Keynote let's you present in a window rather than a full

great, but my obsevation is that at least some browsers apparently don't let
people share just that window, and wind up including an entire screen of
blank pixels around the window because of the File/Edit menu at the top.
Do you know which ones do what here? I don't use that platform.

I think that Projecting PDF is still a better plan, because then it
completely matches what is uploaded.

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From: Carsten Bormann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 15:58:51 +0200

> On 2020-08-19, at 15:47, Michael Richardson <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> 

I’m seeing this with native Webexes; haven’t seen it with browsers yet.

> completely matches what is uploaded.

Sure, but then you don’t get transitions.

If you don’t need the transitions, uploading the PDF in the way BBB enables is way better than screen/window sharing.

Grüße, Carsten

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From: Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 10:06:52 -0400

Fred, David and Warren,

You all made more or less the same point. I agree that knowing 
affiliation can be illuminating. And so I agree it is good to have a 
mechanism to discover it.

I commented because in this discussion it seemed like it might be 
getting undue attention. But maybe it was just me. See below for one 
more point.

On 8/18/20 4:43 PM, David Noveck wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 12:10 PM Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked] 

> Unless you're the CEO, you really can't.

But I have often heard it, stated in much the same way it would be in a 
3GPP meeting. Maybe it is just habit for some people. But still 
inappropriate.

	Thanks,	
	Paul

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From: Dick Hardt <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 07:48:42 -0700

I have a second monitor where I make the keynote presentation window full
screen. I then have my primary monitor available for seeing everything else
going on.

FWIW: I use PDF for my IETF presentations so others can easily review while
I’m presenting or later. I think others being able to mostly understand the
deck without the sound track is important.

FWIW: I’m an abuser of transitions and animations in my business
presentations — I’ve had over 1,000 Keynote slides - but an exported deck
has little value.

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From: Michael Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 21:05:11 -0400

> I’m seeing this with native Webexes; haven’t seen it with browsers yet.

Ah, I see. Another reason to stay away from these unsandboxed binaries.

    > Sure, but then you don’t get transitions.

You can have basic Appear/Disappear just fine if you use the right tools.
Everything else is fluff in my opinion.

    > If you don’t need the transitions, uploading the PDF in the way BBB
    > enables is way better than screen/window sharing.

Agreed.